Pokémon Black & White Bonus Diary: What The Future Holds – Part 1

By Ishaan and Laura . March 19, 2011 . 4:30pm

While playing through Pokémon Black/White, Laura and I recently had a chat about the future of the Pokémon RPGs, particularly with regard to the Nintendo 3DS and all of the improvements it allows for, that weren’t quite possible in the past.


While we certainly aren’t vain enough to believe that our opinions matter in the larger picture, it was a fun talk, since Laura’s kept up with all of the recent games in great depth, whereas I’m more of a “returning” fan that dropped off after Pokémon Ruby/Sapphire. We covered three topics, primarily: communication, the world, and battles.


Below is an edited version of part 1 of our talk. We’ve tried to trim the fat out and keep all of our thoughts relevant. We hope you enjoy it, and feel free to join in the discussion with your own thoughts on the series’ future!


Laura: Interesting that they were all, "We shouldn’t be bound by what makes Pokémon, Pokémon" and… well, I never noticed it, but they kept the box system. I’m too used to it.


Ishaan: I hate the box system. Hate hate hate hate hate. Especially because the rest of the touch interface is so good. Just do a drag and drop system already.


Laura: Oh yeah. I noticed that it was a bit awkward compared to Hg/Ss, even.


Ishaan: Was Hg/Ss better? I can’t remember…


Laura: It was a bit better. Still weird drag-drop though. Well, with the 3DS  having console capabilities, Nintendo’ll be able to "cheat" the "we’re only doing portables" system limitations. 3D will probably be the least of the changes.


Laura: You think they’re going to keep the turn-based system?


Ishaan: Hmm…


Laura: I know the system’s done great for…uh…15 years? But…still.  15…


Ishaan: Yeah.


Laura: Keep something that works…or try something new?


Ishaan: I don’t know; that’s the biggest concern on my mind, too.


Laura: I mean…it’s not that it’s not deep. There are plenty of strategies to be done. However, Nintendo is intent on breaking their own strategies. Their Dream World Pokémon? Most of them are horrendously difficult.


Communication and Story in Future Games:


Ishaan: OK, well…let’s take it one by one. Like you said, 3D’s a given. It’ll be the least of the new features they’ll add. I mean, Iwata said as much at his last investor conference.


Laura: Mmhm.


Ishaan: So…let’s say they need to focus on two new things for 3DS Pokémon…maybe "bringing the world to life" and "communication" could be their buzzwords? Communication is actually something that they tried to take further in B/W.


Ishaan: Look at the C-gear screen when you have it turned on. It looks almost like it’s bringing in updates or streaming data to you…I really like that.


Laura: You mentioned the "What if it was actually streaming data to you." Like Twitter or something. Well, while text support could be hard, considering how you’d need the touchscreen to play the game too, voice support is possible…


Laura: And then there’s always the DSi-supported camera, which…i think they already did with the Livecaster.


Ishaan: I don’t think they’d rely too much on voice outside of an optional feature…I’m sure they’ll include it, just like B/W, but I don’t think it’ll be the main mode of communication.


Ishaan: But okay, let’s consider a few things:

1. 3DS  has a unified friend code, instead of one for each game.

2. C-gear assumes that you’re always near some kind of Wi-Fi hotspot while playing, which is the first time I’ve seen a [non-3G] portable game do that.


Ishaan: So maybe, “Pokémon 3D” can stream data to you on what other trainers on your friend list are up to. Like, if they’re playing Pokémon, too, it could tell you where they are, what they’re doing etc. and maybe allow you to jump in and join them on a quest.


Laura: Isn’t that a bit extraneous info? I mean, you don’t really want to know they ran into 100 Rattatas. Maybe send requests, though…like: “Up for a trade?”


Laura: And you can type it out, instead of that "must have seen in Pokédex beforehand" that prevents you from getting certain Pokémon. The major pillars of Pokémon communication, I think, is still trading and battling, which the C-gear supports.


Laura: You mentioned questing, which I think is cool. Nick did mention that this Pokémon is like a portable World of WarCraft. Plus, it’d give you purpose during post-game, which really annoyed me in B/W.


Ishaan: Like a portable WoW?


Laura: It is. The only difference, maybe, is that Pokémon has an end to the story (Elite Four), but then you can keep on doing it over and over again, so really, the game is as much as you make it out to be.


Ishaan: I do feel like they placed more of an emphasis on the story this time around. Like the early scene with the Munna. I’d like to see more of that in the future.


Ishaan: Right now, the people in the world still feel kind of shallow. The game’s still about battling and trading, but I don’t think it should be restricted to those in the future.


Laura: Pokémon isn’t a normal RPG. You can’t expect it to be all about story. In fact, I’d almost say it’s deliberately not about story, the core part of the game. As much as I’d love a Pokémon with story, that’d be more like a “gaiden” than the actual Pokémon game.


Ishaan: But don’t you think that’s the direction it’s going in? Black/White have more story already. The next step is to try and make each player’s experience unique, and that ties back in with communication again, because it’s a talking point.


Laura: Either way, increasing story…that’s also making it less appealing to kids, isn’t it?


Ishaan: People will share their experiences…like you mentioned the Rattata thing. Someone could send a message over their "network" of friends, going: "THIS IS THE 30th RATTATA IN A ROW!"


Ishaan: And maybe if they’re stuck in a battle, or about to faint, they can send out an S.O.S. or that C-gear type interface can alert you that a friend is in trouble, and you can jump into their battle to try and save them.


Laura: That’s interaction, that’s not story. But that kind of interaction, I’d love to see. I mean, Pokémon is about…your own journey, not about "I’m out to save the world," which is why there’s never been a great complex story.


More Interaction and Creating a Unique Experience:

Ishaan: It’s not story, yeah, but you don’t need to strictly have a "story" to make each experience unique. It doesn’t have to be plot-driven…it can be character-driven.


Laura: Technically, the game itself is about a character-driven "I’m growing through my adventure" story, but it doesn’t really work out because you, the player, aren’t really growing. And character-driven doesn’t really work in video games because there’s no real “goal.”


Laura: Interaction, yes, definitely. Pokémon is about, as Nintendo has said and emphasized, a community. One way to grow is to go further into that. Story, though? I’m not too sure. Though quests can give you a mini-purpose.


Ishaan: That’s all it needs though. It just needs more meaningful characters or things to do in the world other than battling and trading to help bring that world to life and make it feel like you’re having a unique experience that maybe another player isn’t.


Laura: If there’s a story, then everyone would be experiencing the same. In short, you’re saying, make it more MMORPG-esque.


Laura: Oh, speaking of quests, I think Pokémon Mystery Dungeon kind of does that well. It could be kind of a quest system like that, except online.


Ishaan: What does Mystery Dungeon do?


Laura: Mystery Dungeon has a major storyline, but it also revolves around taking quests. It gives you a bigger purpose — trying to learn about why you’re a Pokmeon and return to being a human — and it gives you smaller ones, like saving Pokémon from mystery dungeons.


Ishaan: Right. So you have the same end-goal and the same overall story, but your path to reaching the end (and what you do afterward) should feel like your own…not what everyone else is doing.


Laura: Feel like your own? Or actually is different and your own?


Ishaan: A bit of both? It’d be unrealistic to expect them to make everyone’s experience 100% unique, but adding enough variety to it shouldn’t be a problem when you’re Nintendo and Game Freak. They have the budget and time, and the drive to do it.


Laura: Like — and I’m going to use what I’m playing at the moment as an example — a branching storyline that reaches the same goal, or you can make a party of completely different combinations of classes and it’ll feel different every time because you’ll always require a different strategy?


Laura: The latter is kind of like having different party of Pokémon, but what I basically mean is, a bit of…flavour difference? Different quests overall, different cities to visit. You don’t have to always go to the same 8 gyms. On that note, the anime did mention once upon a time that there are more than 8 gyms in a region…


Ishaan: Different quests for sure. Different cities, if they’re willing to go that far, would be awesome. But maybe also how you reach the end of the story. Maybe you aren’t strictly a Pokémon trainer. Maybe you could be a researcher or a breeder?


Ishaan: And as a result of that, you’d see a different side of the game and world. That comes back to characters again. Same overall story, but see different aspects of it through different characters, quests, goals and Pokémon.


Laura: I’m not sure about occupations. sure it sounds nice, but carried out, it’ll turn into the most superfluous of differences that will only seem "gimmicky" rather than in-depth. Hmm..unless you do turn it into a branching storyline. Different goals will play into that.


Ishaan: I don’t think you have to make the occupations clear-cut. Let the player steer himself in the direction that looks most interesting, and let him or her back out and go a different way if they find it getting boring. That’s very important.


Ishaan: This way, the emphasis is still on Pokémon and not on people. Your path is decided by your view of Pokémon and how they can help the world.


Laura: What would Pokémon be about then? Learning about the Pokémon or your journey as a Pokémon trainer, researcher…or rather, learning what you want to be in life?


Ishaan: I think growth. Isn’t that what Pokémon is supposed to be about on some level anyway? You grow alongside Pokémon…that’s always what they’re trying to push, but if you’re our age, it doesn’t really feel that way.


Laura: I suppose so. At our age, it’s actually more about the Pokémon. Finding them and catching them, sure, but also how to battle them and come up with strategies. On that note, I’d love to learn more than just a small Pokédex blurb about the Pokémon.


Ishaan: The turn-based thing is up for debate, too, like you said.  It’d make the game less accessible for younger kids though. That said, Persona 3 and 4 are turn-based, too, but they feel more dynamic because of the music and animation, and Black/White’s battles already look more animated.


Ishaan: If they use 3D models — those would be compatible with the 3DS Augmented Reality Cards, too — they could easily make the battles feel more exciting.


Laura: Well I mean, even if they do the "Oh, this Pokémon’s Speed is MUCH, MUCH higher than the opponent’s. We can make him attack twice!" instead of having speed be completely comparative…


Ishaan: Ah, yeah, that would be cool. Like, actual differences in how fast they can move. Then again, that might make everyone want to focus on their Speed stat…so maybe just the number of turns like you said.


Ishaan: …not that that wouldn’t make people focus on the Speed stat, too, though.


Laura: Because currently, even if my Jolteon’s Speed is 390, it only attacks once compared to a Pokémon with Speed 30, and while I understand that Speed is important, it’s also the stat that’s second-easiest to ignore when EV training, simply because it doesn’t do anything other than determine turns.


Laura: It’s very important, but… I think you’d hesitate more to not train Defense or Special defense. Then again, I can see this easily being abused, haha.


Laura: So that’s story and communication. What else is there, other than battles?


Before Moving On to Battles…

Ishaan: Hmmm…what about presentation? How would you make the world "feel" more alive? Castelia City in Black/White didn’t quite work. Even though they tried, it had the opposite effect. All the random streams of people just made them feel like zombies.


Laura: Interactable Pokémon that appear randomly but aren’t for battling. Like those pigeons or bats in the beginning, depending on when you started. Like the ducks in the lakes.


Ishaan: Ooh, I like that. In fact, that ties into your Pokédex blurb idea. The more you meet and interact, the more you fill out your Pokédex entry on a species.


Laura: I’m not sure how it’d tie into Pokémon encounters. Maybe if you befriend them, you’ll encounter more, but the rest of the ones in the area will run away or gang up on you?


Laura: But I do want to see more of Pokémon other than in battles. Honestly, that was why I had this sudden urge to play Pokémon Guardian Signs. Even if it was still about encounters, I saw them walking around on the overfield.


Ishaan: Well…the problem is, how would you grind then? You can’t have so many just wandering about. Then again, I wouldn’t complain if they significantly cut down on the grinding itself…


Laura: They already did cut down a lot. Especially with the "lower level = more experience" thing.


Ishaan: Even with the improvements, Black/White gets grindy.


Laura: Oh yes, it is. Especially later on with the Elite Four?


Ishaan: I’m still at lvl 22, and it took my entire team, with five of them fainting, to defeat the Bug Gym.


Laura: i played Hg/Ss recently again, and I was getting, annoyingly, 2000-3000 EXP per Pokémon, while in B/W, I was getting…uh 7000 to 9000. It is much easier in B/W to level.


Ishaan: I can’t believe you had the courage to go back to Hg/Ss.


Laura: Of course…all my Pokémon are there. And seriously? If I actually tried? I could complete the Pokédex, just by evolving and breeding.


Ishaan: I’m just going to mooch off your Pokémon from Hg/Ss, and what few I have myself.


If you lasted this long, there’s a chance you might enjoy the second half of our discussion, which centred around the current battle system and whether or not it needs streamlining in the future. We’ll have that up tomorrow!

Thanks to Serebii.net for the Pokémon Box image from Black/White.

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  • Graphics: I’m attached to 2D sprites, but a 2D-3D background may work..I kinda want an option to dress up your own avatar instead of having to choose default ones. (I.e. for entralink)

    Story: I agree with the more character-driven thing. I think the amount of story in Pokemon now is fine enough (what I like about Pokemon stories is that they’re usually not too serious or . But I always like to interact with the gym leaders other important NPCs, but Unfortunately they often have small roles or disappear after the main plotline.

    Gameplay: Pokemon without turn-based play, is a spin off Pokemon game… I think alternate ways of battling should be saved for those games. Same with different occupations (as much as that sounds neat).

  • This is what i want from pokemon
    1. Keep the turn based battling you don’t mess with a good thing.

    2. Do a drastically different story no gyms, no elite four maybe you’re the head of the newest evil pokemon group or something like that.

    3. Start using 3D models for the pokemon in gen 6 for the 3DS (though it won’t bother me if they stick with 2D).

    4. Maybe a pokemon mmo for the next nintendo console after the wii (this will probably never happen). Imagine you beat a gym leader/elite four you can decide to take their place or not. You will have to build a team composed of pokemon of the type of gym you beat, so if you beat a fire gym you would have to build a team revolving around fire pokemon (with a few exceptions like you can have 1 or 2 pokemon that aren’t fire type on the team). Then trainers from around the world will fight you and try to take your spot as the gym leader/elite four.

  • andref

    My experience started with Pokemon yellow and the fun idea of having the game play like the show was awesome. Then came gold and silver and I loved the fact you defeated the gyms in both Johto and Kanto which added plenty of time being involved in the game besides constantly breeding, EV training, and endlessly fighting the Elite Four to level up. I also skipped the third generation and went into diamond and pearl which for the most part felt way too similar to past games without the option of fighting more then 8 gyms which sucked since gold and silver was the last game I played in the series.
    Another major problem which I’m glad was changed for black and white was not seeing the previous pokemon until post-game which caused the game to feel newer to me and more enjoyable. The only addition I still want is to have non-turned based battles so the games could feel like the show but instead of the DS or any nintendo handheld I want a console RPG badly so we can battle in real time and the game could feel like a true anime adventure

  • Pokemon battles that would look more like the ones in the anime would be great, so…more action based?
    I really liked the overall plot and the interactions between “you” and all the more important characters. I may be in the minority, but they gave a lot more impact to the “story” and why you actually fight with your Pokemon instead of just going to be the champ.
    What would be great, though, is if they someday make a Pokemon game with all the continents in it, with the past main characters as adults and hardass champs of their region, more meaning to the legendaries, so that they are actually legendary and not just stronger Pokemon, with an actual tournament(again more like the anime), nothing against the elite four, but a tournament would be damn awesome. With a longer story, though if its possible without turning off the younger audience(as they are the majority of the gamers) and maybe a lovestory just for the laughs. xD

    • I think they just need to look like they do in PKMN Stadium/Coliseum/Battle Revolution to be honest.

      • Yeah I wouldn’t mind that, but I’m aiming for perfection. The battles in the show are so intense, the gym and Pokemon league ones at least, it would be damn awesome if you could combine attacks in the game too or if you and your enemy could make simultaneous attacks and see which one ends up being the stronger and all! :P

    • Exkaiser

      Have you seen the battles in the anime? They’re less animated than the ones in Diamond.

      • I have, I talk about the interactions with the attacks, the combos and all, that’s what I want, that would give the game more strategy elements as well.

        • I remember watching the first season of that and seeing Ash order Pikachu to dodge attacks, which then I tried to do on my Yellow version and failed miserably lol.

        • Exkaiser


  • I thought PKMN is an RPG, Im surprised the isshu of grinding was brought up, that being said, I guess I myself always drifted towards the grind level type aspect to be numerous levels higher than the gym and most trainers in the area. I guess I like having the upper hand. Somehow its why I always have more than 80 hours of playtime to even get to the Elite 4.

    Boxes was amazing in HG/SS though!

  • My Pokemon game: i would like there to be a anti team(rocket, aqua, ect) organization that you can join(not mandatory). if you do, you can team up with friends threw wifi(or other) to fight team[insert name].
    and in the other version you can be team[insert name] and fight the anti team [insert name] it would give people reason to get the other version.

    battle system would need to be upgraded. i want the environment around me to become the battle field. and i want it to effect battle like, if a boulder is on the ground i want to be able to use a tackle and hit the other pokemon into it. doing extra damage. combo attacks for 2 or more pokemon like, water gun+thunderbolt=spark gun.

    i want to be able to customize my characters looks. and badges can unlock more things to buy. and it would be neat if you could do minor customs for your pokemon as well. (like Ritchies sparky hair due for pikachu, maybe glasses for squirtle).

    maybe the option to choose your home town, and set of pokemon you can choose from(each town having a set) and a rival or two for each town.

    though my opinion is probably never going to happen, its nice to vent it out so i can concentrate on more important matters. like say getting sleep for work- oh… i could have used this time to sleep… woops!

    • I agree with the battle system, that’s totally like how I want it myself! :D

  • kyuketsukimiyu

    I have wanted the ability to choose different “jobs” in Pokemon for a long time. It would be really cool if you could start a gym or something. In a world that revolves around Pokemon, it feels very limiting to always be the traveling trainer.

  • ATB system for Pokemon.

  • I used to be a big pokemon fan back in the day, but after the 3rd gen, my interest toward the series died down a lot. I still bought Diamond and Black (Sold Diamond, like every other pokemon game I’ve owned so far that’s not Black) and I still put in over 60 hours into Diamond and 3 hours into Black so far. I’m few of those “strange” fans that never finished a game in the 2nd gen. In fact, the 2nd gen rather bored me. The designs were good and all, but ever since my childhood, I never beat any game in the 2nd gen. I bought Heart Gold a few weeks after release, and got same results. I got bored by the 7th Gym, and I sold it. I mean, I know about how they have the whole Kanto region after you get the first 8 badges, but… I’m not sure why.

    My favorites to least favorites by gen would be… 1 > 5 > 2=4 > 3. 4 had the slowest battles but I enjoyed it, and some pokemon designs were really cool. 5th gen has the fastest battles, keeps all the old stuff locked away till end game, and they added a few nice additions. 3rd gen had some fast battles, but it was the weirdest pokemon game with the worst (imo) designs, that’s for sure.

    What would I like in the next pokemon game? You know, I’m not too sure. I’ve been playing the main pokemon games for over 11 years, but I can’t think of anything I want changed. I’m starting to getting tired of the Turn based 4-attacks-per-pokemon formula, but Black and White seems to have pulled it off nicely. I’m not too crazy about the idea of an MMO pokemon though I’m sure it’ll sell birrions. An action game would seem kinda silly (in my opinion). I’m not a fan of 3D models and 3D attacks, but that’s apparently what a lot of people want.

    For now, I’m just going to enjoy Black.

  • Guest

    sounds like a back n forth argument you were having on the future growth of Pokemon (or lack thereof in her eyes). ugh

  • Exkaiser

    Here’s what I want from Pokemon:

    1) Get pokemons.
    2) Get badges.
    3) Alienate your friends and family through your supernatural pokemon training ability.
    4) Pokemon master!

    Also, I have no idea what you guys are talking about in the beginning of the discussion, when Laura is complaining about the box system. It’s been a drag-and-drop system since Gen IV. You… just drag things and drop them.

    • We were talking about getting rid of the separate menus (withdraw, deposit, move etc.) entirely…those are kind of annoying when you want to move a whole lot of Pokemon around.

      • Exkaiser

        Oh, well, I’m not even sure why they keep Withdraw and Deposit around when you have the Move function.

  • Jaxx-Leviathan

    I don’t enjoy MMORPGs, but I actually find the idea somewhat interesting. I’m not so much interested in the massively-multiplayer part, but the questing-system (like that of Mystery Dungeon as you mention) and character classes are something I enjoy. Regarding classes, they kinda gave you that choice in B/W, when choosing your “nature” on the trainer card, though that was just superficial. I think they could make different quests for different classes, but you shouldn’t be forced to devote your character to one class, just do the missions you want to. Then you could advance through, say, Scientist-class quests with grades like Novice, Journeyman, Master Scientist and stuff. And then you could pair that with the point of further research into Pokémon and seeing them up closer through quests. The Scientist could get into the why’s and how’s of Pokémon, the Breeder could make Pkmn breed for certain eggs or raise their trust-level, the Blackbelt could train Pkmn to certain levels, the Hiker could explorer caverns for treasures, Ranger could save wild Pkmn in danger, Bugcatcher should catch specific Bug-types and etc. etc.

  • karasuKumo

    I see Augmented Reality being a big part of Pokemon 3DS, think about it they could incorporate it into a regular Pokemon game or make a separate game for the official card game. It would recognize the Pokemon cards and show the 3D Pokemon above it. It would use then show the attacks on the 3DS screen and what cards they require to use them. Once you select an attack it would play the attack animation.

    Or if it was a regular Pokemon game all you would need is the AR card and it would show the Pokemon on the the table surface. Sort of making it one of the 3D Pokemon games on the Gamecube and Wii. You could play with someone in the same room or do it through Wifi or even single player. It would be optional because obviously it would take forever to set up every battle as AR, but at least the choice would be there.

    Character and Pokemon customization would be useful too, like clothing/hair stores for your character and Pokemon accessory stores with nothing major just stuff like sunglasses, hairpins etc.

    • I could totally see them even making the next line of the Trading Card Game AR-compatible, so collectors have further incentive to buy those…sort of like how they netted you bonuses via the GBA e-Reader. Agree 100%, AR and Pokémon together are a sure thing, no doubt about it in my mind. :)

      • karasuKumo

        That would make sense, you could get a starter pack with the game :) It would certainly get me into the cards again haha

  • So, it seems I missed something with the C-Gear I’ve been playing up until the 2nd Badge but I haven’t found the C-Gears usefulness yet, to me it’s just a bunch of pretty colors on the lower screen.. Anyone care to explain when does it become useful?

    • Hopefully on March 30th…that’s when their Global Link thing goes up. But right now, yea, C-Gear looks kind of cool but that’s about it. :p

  • I never caught on with the Pokemon series after the G/S generation. It just wasn’t really that appealing to me anymore. After playing great RPGs like FFVI or Chrono Trigger, and trying some others like KOTOR, it just seems oh so dry.

    I feel as if Pokemon has so much potential, but it doesn’t go the distance. It just meets the halfway point, and just stops. They can make so many improvements to make it a deeper franchise. Why not allow access to all regions? Why is the box system still here? Why not add depth to the battle system instead of adding “triple battles” which isn’t really that much of a stretch from 2v2 battles, and other mainstream RPGs have always used party based battle systems?

    Customization would be nice too. Why not customize your character? Change looks, clothing and stuff. Even Pokemon, I don’t know, they can have a little scarf or something. xD

    And the story, I know it’s not supposed to be an INCREDIBLE enveloping story that involves intrigue and betrayal and romance, but why not flesh out the characters more? Or how about your own character? Why can’t you have moments in the game where you can respond to people in various ways like say… KOTOR or Mass Effect and such, which can deepen the story?

    Ahhh… rant over.

    • I feel like having access to all regions is kind of an unrealistic expectation…space requirements are one constraint, but development time would skyrocket if they had to update every single region for each new game.

      It wouldn’t be as simple as just pulling data from an old game and tossing it into a new one…you’d have to do a lot of rebalancing. Also, if they started to do that, people would expect an increasing number of regions in each new game.

      Ultimately, you’ve got to ask where the ceiling is, and how much time/money you want to spend on development. A lot of people don’t even play all the way through a single region, so multiple regions would be of no consequence at all…

      • well I’m aware of that. But I think if they were to make a game on a console rather than on a handheld then it’s not as unrealistic as it seems, though I understand what you’re saying for the most part.
        Yeah I know, Pokemon’s not really meant for consoles though.

        Regardless of all that, it still feels like Pokemon isn’t taking it all the way like some other franchises do. It needs to go above and beyond to get my attention.

  • I thoroughly enjoy pokemon, as it is, because of it’s very strategic core gameplay. Ishaan and Laura seem both like very casual gamers despite their knowledge of EV’s and such. The small discussion about changing how battles would take place really turned me off.
    1. Speed is number one priority for most players that have any knowledge of the game’s hidden mechanics. I simply cannot imagine anyone I know training all their pokemon for defense and special defense.
    2. There’s a reason why only the core games have gotten so successful and it’s because it works. Nintendo has tried to do something different like Mystery dungeon and some other spin offs but they mostly haven’t gotten much success.

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