Mugen Souls Z’s Story And Gameplay Will Be The Same Aside From The Bath Mini-Game

By Spencer . October 23, 2013 . 2:29pm

imageYes, Mugen Souls Z will be edited, but the content that was removed isn’t much. Siliconera asked NIS America to clarify the edits and the bath mini-game that was removed from Mugen Souls will not be in Mugen Souls Z.

 

A representative from NIS America explained that everything else will be untouched. The story, text, and core gameplay will be the same. Stat increases that players would have received from the bath mini-game will be applied automatically.

 

Mugen Souls Z is slated for release in North America and Europe next year.


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  • http://linkapics.tumblr.com/ Linka

    Sooo, basically nothing of notable worth.

    Mugen Souls is one of those games I feel I should really give a decent go at when I have the time, and Compile Heart has a track record of improving on sequels, so I’ll be looking out for this. And keep hoping that Fairy Fencer F will get a localization announcement, too…

    • Tyler Beale

      CH also has a track record of reusing assets in those sequels. A prime example is Neptunia Victory–>Re;birth 1, other incidents include reusing Agarest SFX in Agarest Zero, 2, and Neptunia. And I believe that a monster from Neptunia 1 was reused in Agarest 2 as well, though since I’ve never played the 1st Neptunia, I don’t know what the monster in question is.

      And let’s not forget the steep difficulty spikes, especially when it comes to Agarest post-game and Neptunia Victory’s DLC…

      • http://linkapics.tumblr.com/ Linka

        True, but I feel it’s a little unfair to point out Victory to Re;birth 1? Since Re;birth’s a remake of the first game and the main point’s to improve it and put it more on the level that the succeeding games were. It’d be kinda like complaining that Gust’s reusing Meruru’s engine and mechanics in the Rorona remake, when it’s basically the best iteration of the Arland series they have, mechanically.

        I totally get the point of reusing things among other games though, and difficulty spikes during post-game though. DLC I can give a little bit of a pass to, but only just a little.

        • Tyler Beale

          You’re right about that, but as I watch the trailers for Re;birth 1, I can’t help but think that’s exactly what they’re doing, if not making some minor changes to the map designs.

      • Lynx

        -And I believe that a monster from Neptunia 1 was reused in Agarest 2 as well, though since I’ve never played the 1st Neptunia, I don’t know what the monster in question is.

        It’s pretty much a running gag at this point.
        Its the same monster, every time.

        Some sort of tiger thing I think. It’s the first (mini)boss in Agarest 2 I think. If that’s the one you’re referring too.

        • Landale

          They reuse the 3D monster models for several games across multiple series, replacing a few with newer ones each time. Their typical Dryad model finally got replaced in Neptunia Victory and the Golems got replaced in the first Mugen Souls for example. The wolf and, for lack of better words, bondage ghost, which I don’t think they’ve actually used in the Neptunia games just the Agarests and Trinity Universe, are pretty much the oldest models they’re still using so those will likely change soon.

      • Luis Camargo

        CH know how to milk every byte of every asset they make.

        You can bet you will be fighting that pac-man monster in 8 different colors in Neptunia 2035.

      • TheAquacharger

        CH was still using sprites from Cross Edge in Record of Agarest War, and I even believe some music in other games(if not some of it sounded very much a like). I know some of the sprites in Cross Edge were even from some of their games on the PS2.

    • CirnoTheStrongest

      The sequel is pretty much improved in every way from the original.

      • http://linkapics.tumblr.com/ Linka

        Well then, I’ll look forward to it.

  • School Idol Addict

    That’s good if that’s all they are removing, i’m looking forward to buy this game day 1.

  • shadowind

    In before the inevitable shitstorm from certain whiny so-called “fanboys” and “fangirls”

    If they were true “fanboys” and “fangirls” of NISA then they wouldn’t throw a bloody tantrum over a damn minigame which as far as I know doesn’t have anything to do with the main game itself!

    I swear these people are in serious need of help if they feel the need to show themselves up just because in their sad little eyes, the English version of Mugen Souls and its sequel are censored just because a tiny part was removed and had to be removed for obvious reasons.

    To those people, I say: Please will you kindly go and seriously go and get a bloody life instead of making yourself even more stupid than you did the first time, mmkay…

    • http://linkapics.tumblr.com/ Linka

      I think really the main thing that’s confusing about this is that… most people probably wouldn’t care about the minigame– they’re just angry about censorship.

      Which, is understandable in a lot of ways? But I think when it comes to some things like this, it’s better to just let it go, especially when that thing might actually kick a rating up to M/AO due to standards.

      • shadowind

        I can understand where you’re coming from, but at the same time, it’s better to have the game come out in English, than not come out in English because it would get an AO rating if the bath minigame had been included in both versions.

        I have no problem with anybody who presents their argument for why the game shouldn’t be censored in a reasonable manner, but I definitely have a problem with those who act entitled morons and think that by whining over and over that they’ll get the game uncensored!

        I wouldn’t be too surprised if there are Japanese games that would have had a chance of an English release but ended up not coming out in the West because the potential publishers were concerned about how certain people would feel if even one tiny unimporant part of the game was removed from the English release…

        • Pekola

          Yes and they’re going to want to do that after your first comment?

          If you can’t see the merit in their argument to begin with, there’s no point.

          • shadowind

            Even though I agree with Linka’s viewpoint, as I said before, I have no sympathy with those who come across (as with the threads for the first Mugen Souls game) as acting like spoilt brats just because a part of the game that has nothing to do with the main game itself is removed.

            To those people, I say: If you want it uncensored, then why don’t you just buy the Japanese version and use the official strategy guide (if it gets an English release) or use a guide from GameFAQs and let us people (like myself) who aren’t bothered if the game is censored or not to buy it and show NISA how much we care about this game.

            In any case, I’m still not changing my opinion just because I seem to have upset certain people, and if they (with the exception of Linka who I have respect for and the Mods) don’t like it, then that’s their problem, and besides, everybody’s entitled to an opinion about this subject even if certain people are pissed off because it hits too close to home…

          • MrSirFeatherFang

            You’ve made you’re point already. Let’s no delve any further into this.

          • Ferrick

            gotta love the pointless bitching that could’ve been avoided if you didn’t start it to begin with

          • Pekola

            I think it’s the -way- you’re overblowing the situation.

            NISA are bringing over a product, and far it be from me to tell a buyer he should invest his enjoyment in. I they don’t support censorship then that’s a personal choice.

            I don’t think you’re wrong in that the end solution is to just suck it up. But when it comes to games, when you want a change, usually being vocal helps.

            Some people are just sternly against any form of censorship or deviation of the source product. That’s their choice.

            Fans of these games usually have a defined formula. No censoring or changing and dual audio. I may not understand it, but I can’t trivialize it because different people derive entertainment from different things.

      • no one

        I’d say the most distasteful part of the whole Mugen Souls fiasco was in one of the responses provided by NISA:
        “[...] we [...] decided to cut out the parts we felt was against our belief and the core value to delivering the morally acceptable entertainment for everyone”.

        It wasn’t necessarily a matter of whether or not the game would receive an M/AO rating–they were morally opposed to the content itself, therefore they removed it. That’s a troubling position to take.

        • Pekola

          Very troubling. Seems a bit messed up. They’re willing to bring it over and rake profit, but not willing to give out the full deal?

          I don’t know if that’s what their intent was, but being lukewarm is flaky at best.

          Maybe that’s why Mugen Souls did badly?

          • http://twitter.com/#!/kaishou Kaishou

            I thought mugen souls did badly because…it was actually a bad game?

        • http://twitter.com/puchixseda puchinri

          I would generally agree, but given the content, I feel their sentiments. I can’t even feel it’s a case, “what will they remove next,” because it wasn’t that outrageous in the first place.

    • Landale

      While the reactions to things getting censored, and yes removing things is censorship not just in someone’s “sad little eyes” that’s merely a matter of rightful or not, get rather questionable, you’re doing nothing but attempting to stir up the “inevitable shitstorm” by insulting them repeatedly before they’ve even done anything.

      • shadowind

        Why are YOU accusing me of trying to stir up a “shitstorm”. I’m not the one trying to stir up a shitstorm, I’m just stating the bleeding obvious that it’s going to happen eventually and I’m sorry to say that I’m not going to change my opinion for anyone and definitely not you!

        And where do you get the idea that I’m insulting these people repeatedly from. These sad peons who are complaining about the minigame being removed should be bloody grateful that it’s getting a release in the first place, because knowing them, they’d probably throw a huge-ass tantrum if it didn’t get released or it was planned for a Western release and got cancelled at the last minute as has happened before with one or two games, I believe.

        Look at it this way, I wouldn’t be too surprised if I get proven right and if I do, it definitely won’t be my fault!

        In all honesty, I feel sorry for niche publishers (with the exception of Atlus USA, but that’s another story for another day!) in North America in that they’re trying their best to bring awesome games out in English and yet there are certain people out there who act all ungrateful just because in their eyes certain releases aren’t perfect; such as certain scenes removed or certain names changed or no voices at all, etc, etc, etc…

        • Landale

          Where are you being insulting? “whiny so-called “fanboys” and “fangirls”” “I swear these people are in serious need of help if they feel the need to show themselves up just because in their sad little eyes” “Please will you kindly go and seriously go and get a bloody life instead of making yourself even more stupid than you did the first time” And for bonus points, right after asking where you’re being insulting. “These sad peons”

    • mirumu

      What does being true fanboy or fangirl of NISA have to do with anything? The game is developed by Compile Heart. Besides, if being a true fanboy or fangirl means you’ll accept anything they do is it really a good thing?

      Some people care more about censorship in general than just playing some random censored game.

  • Tyler Beale

    You know what’s also funny? Agarest 2 has bath mini-games too (but with only 1 loli in the 1st 2 generations), yet Aksys decided to keep it in, and it only got a T for Teen…

    • DesmaX

      Well, they are clothed there, at least

      • Tyler Beale

        So is this game, according to a YouTube video I just watched earlier today. But the white fog makes them appear nude…

        • Lynx

          I’d post a link to run through of the CGs from Nico but I’m not going to risk it. I’d consider it NSFW and I really don’t get want to get any of my posts flagged.

          I think I understand where NISA’s coming from with it though. Unlike Agarest where you had some semblance of age with the majority of the characters (the only questionable one was Fiona but she ages with the leads.) most of the characters in MS are childish in appearance in the CGs.

          Another thing to consider is the difference between cultures and rating systems. To use an example: When something like Persona 3/4 gets an M in North America and is rated the equivalent of E10+ in Japan, you know there’s going to be a difference in rating systems and culture of such content. I mean, aside from THAT one boss in Rise’s dungeon in 4, I’d say they were T games at best.

          I’m not a fan of censorship by any means but there are cases (like this) where it’s better to remove content and be able to sell the game then not remove and not be able to sell the game.

          • Tyler Beale

            “(the only questionable one was Elilis but she ages with the leads.)”

            You forgot Fiona from Agarest 2? Yeah, I know she doesn’t get older until Gen 3 (despite what the game tries to tell you in the profiles etc.), but…she’s a loli too IMO.

          • Lynx

            Oh….

            I meant Fiona. Always get the names mixed up.
            I’ll edit that.

        • Wappuli

          It’s not just the fog, as you can still quite easily see that they have clothes.
          But the more you rub them, the more see-through those clothes become, and in the end they look pretty much the same color as skin.

    • Pekola

      NISA should probably just explain things in detail. They know censorship makes gamers cringe.

      It is in their best interest, after all.

      • Tyler Beale

        If they did this to Neptunia, I’d be mad. I’d still buy the game, but I’d be made that they did it.

    • Kamakuma

      I’m still trying to understand how that got under the radar. Also For everyone saying Rise is the reason Persona got M. COME ON! >___> We all know Mara had a lot to do with that M. >___<

      • Tatsuya1221

        It actually probably has more to do with the cases themselves (mainly the first 2) and not rise’s dungeon/mission itself, of course there’s also the underlying philosophical undertones that also effect rating, but that’s another story.

    • http://twitter.com/#!/kaishou Kaishou

      http://tinyurl.com/p8mn4rn nsfw and relevant to this discussion. There that’s your reason why the bath mini-game is censored.

      • DesmaX

        Silly girls, that’s not how you take a bath!

        • http://twitter.com/#!/kaishou Kaishou

          and that’s obviously not soap.

          • AkiraScare

            Too Thick and sticky (^_^)

        • Pekola

          Oh jeebus…wat am I reading >__<

      • Raharu95

        Oh Gad… Now I am understanding the whole debacle.

        • http://twitter.com/#!/kaishou Kaishou

          A picture is worth a thousand words. Now everyone who complains about the bath mini-game removal look somewhat suspicious.

          • Raharu95

            Indeed. And I just search the Record’s of Agarest war 2 mimi game. You… really can’t compare the two. Mugen souls is in a whole another level.

          • M’iau M’iaut

            Yup. When even otaku are saying – ‘you know we don’t need to go this far’ — folks just need to calm down and accept rubbing up 6 to 8 year old girls is going too far :p.

          • Raharu95

            6 to 8 year old Looking, Mind you, but yes, I agree. Frankly this whole mess is just because something, no matter what it is, is being removed. Not what is being removed.

          • M’iau M’iaut

            Understood, but we don’t grow the niche if we don’t accept the place for such junk is questionable at best. That’s the point i am personally making.

          • kardonius

            Hey, let’s give a big round of applause for the thought police here.

            Fiction and reality are two very different things, and the only just restrictions of a natural right, such as free thought, is restrictions when the action actually infringes on the natural rights of another REAL, living being, specifically a REAL, human being. Drawing, or thinking of something that makes one uncomfortable is not something that can be justly restricted by law or otherwise.

            Oh and don’t waste time with straw men like “Oh you if you just want to look at porn go google it” or somesuch

          • Pekola

            Just saw the video. You were absolutely right. I honestly didn’t think they’d actually go that far.

            I don’t know what to make of this.

      • Herok♞

        um…. I have no words

      • http://linkapics.tumblr.com/ Linka

        Jesus, that’s a very good reason to be taken out.

      • Kyosuke Yoshino

        Well you usally can’t see even nearly this much ingame, because half of the screen is covered with STEAM.

        In fact, they could have increased the steam even more, or censore the pictures themselves, so only less of the characters could have been seen (or add swimsuits on them and remove the soap, lol). I think that would have been still much more acceptable, and we would see much less complaints! Of course that would cost money for them… and taking them out completely is the easiest.

        • Oscar Alberto Abrego Suarez

          *touch gil in her intimate parts*
          Girl: “Kimochi”. “Sugoi”. “motto motto”.

          Nope lad its just not matter of more steam but the context of the whole scene.

      • Bobby Jennings

        That is terrible.

      • https://twitter.com/Ni_Go_Zero_Ichi Project 2501

        Ugh, with those character designs it’s not even sexy, just skeevy and gross.

    • artemisthemp

      Aksys is only releasing to America and is therefor not affect by UK law, which makes it illegal to sell games or Anime with naked loli’s in.

      Sadly NISA localize to EU and US, else they could have keep the Bath Mini-game

  • Flandre Scarlet

    I don’t think they quite understand the mentality behind the boycotts, yet. Just saying, “Everything’s the same but this thing we removed” isn’t going to stop the people upset you removed something from, well, being upset.

    The goofed up hard with Mugen Souls by changing their answers, throwing out different excuses as to why it was removed, going from “We had to” to “Company policy”. This was on top of really suspect changes like the renaming of Chou-Chou’s personalities.

    The game’s sales suffered for it, and their usual LEs, which sell out no matter what, are still in stock a year later, despite this being the first LE they offered nendos for (which was huge). They opted to take the much less popular sequel, sales-wise, and bring it over here with the exact same mindset, not learning a single thing from Mugen Souls.

    NISA, you should KNOW this by now. The amount of potential consumers for these games is already niche, and this is just going to serve to fragment them even further, and just because the game is censored doesn’t mean you’re going to attract new customers.

    If you truly, TRULY could not, would not, absolutely refused to bring it over with the game’s content fully intact, you should have just not brought it over. If you keep this attitude up, you’re just setting yourself up for more failure.

    • Oscar Alberto Abrego Suarez

      “If you truly, TRULY could not, would not, absolutely refused to bring it over with the game’s content fully intact, you should have just not brought it over. If you keep this attitude up, you’re just setting yourself up for more failure.”

      What if i care only for the plot and gameplay and not shoehorned fanservice loli nude crap?

      Seriously if you want to jerk off with the CGs just download the CG pack on japanese sites.

      There everyone happy.

      • Shady Shariest

        “Seriously if you want to jerk off with the CGs just download the CG pack on japanese sites.”

        … This somehow has to be the best bit of Disqus i have seen in a while :3

      • FlareKnight

        Are you planning on buying a hundred copies of this game? Because otherwise good job at missing the point.

        It doesn’t matter what you take out, giving people less of a game no matter what it is that you are taking out is going to hurt sales. And those sales are already so limited as it is.

        But sure if you want to make a fuss about the bath scenes themselves instead of actually responding to the point have at it I guess.

        • Oscar Alberto Abrego Suarez

          What point? Not getting a game just because some fucking CGs? Honestly if you people didnt get the original because of this and ignored the rest of the game you surely have some kind of strange fetish for these things with 1000 years old lolis.

          This crap doesnt break the game in any way whatsoever unless you wanted the game for those minigames specifically wich is creepy as hell.

          • NoOneSeesWhatWeSee

            “strange fetish for these things with 1000 years old lolis.”

            Is strange an insult, though? I guess in the matter of being “unsettling” it would become sensible enough to use the word that way. Not that I’m trying to have a debate on the morality of lolicon. I just don’t understand the importance or worth of being “normal” or ordinary.

            If you mean surprising. I don’t think it should be surprising that people with sexual orientations or desires they can’t help and aren’t accepted by society, who want to be good people and don’t want to hurt anyone. Would turn to fictional fantastical characters like anime girls in order to remove their desires from the realm of ordinary reality.

            And furthermore, deeply want to justify their attractions with them being older. Being 1000 years old or so forth fits the fantasy many have dreamed of, no longer feeling like the monster and being an older person, but much younger than the person of their desire. Most lolicons want desperately to justify and be moral people about their orientation. They want a healthy outlet for the desires they can’t help. And that’s a part of why characters like Chou Chou exist.

            Lolicons want a consenting partner. Lolicons don’t want to come to terms with some of the unfortunate realities they’re faced with. Many lolicons want a partner their age or older. But reality makes things hard and people become very desperate not to live life through complete sexual repression.

          • NoOneSeesWhatWeSee

            (the continuation of my post)

            And there really is a limit to how many healthy outlets exist for such people. So such people are generally desperate. And people are continually wanting for such material. And are going to continually give monetary support products which help them cope with their sexual orientation. These things may of course seem strange, unimportant, or even harmful to many people. But for some people, they help fill a part of the Maslow’s hierarchy of needs. There’s a lot of talk about how “moe otaku pandering” is ruining the industry. And how such people need to be ignored. And how otaku are “desperiate” and will “buy anything with moe”. However, I don’t think that desperation in an insult thing. Or that buying something due to how much “moe” it has is wrong.

            Furthermore, no matter how much many people speak out against these things. This isn’t going to go away. Moe otaku are only going to move on whoever does give them their fix. And there will always be somewhere out there to provide it, though otaku may have to make compromises. Otaku are just people who follow their passions and do what makes them happy, despite what other people think. And as it so happens, a lot of them like moe and lolis and things like that. This isn’t a contagious thing, though, and lolicons can’t help who they are. But they can direct their feelings on the most morally correct direction possible. This isn’t going to go away unless you can find a cure for people’s sexual orientations. Sexual repression isn’t the answer as this is an immutable sexual orientation, whether or not people think it is an immoral sexual orientation. Thus repression isn’t going to stop it from existing.

            And these people aren’t just going to lay down and die. And not all of them are going to live in complete sexual repression. Thus, there is always going to be a market, and probably a vocal and desperate market, for products like this. And no amount of talk is going to make them disappear.

            Also, I don’t think that everyone who makes such a thing a point of contention to buying this game is a lolicon. There are actually, sadly enough, “offensive speech” aficionados out there who believe themselves to be bastions of free speech by collecting banned books, morally questionable sexual material like loli stuff, racist things, and so forth.

          • Oscar Alberto Abrego Suarez

            I meant for not getting the game just because of the CGs that arent really something that undermine the game quality (Whatever that is).

            There is a lot of eroges lolicon out there that actual focus is on the sexual themes they can play.

            But this game is just not only about the girls touching as is more a really obvious way of shoehorning the feature that its not really a huge part of the core experience.

            My point with the 1000 year old thing was that is normally just to avoid any problems.

          • http://www.hamstapowah.com/ Zaron

            It’s a weak argument even in that regard, though, isn’t it? The age of consent business is there because that’s when we’ve deemed, on average, humans to be physically and mentally adult enough to partake in certain activities while accepting full responsibility.

            For a good parallel, the Disgaea games seem to keep demon ages at about 100 years to 1 compared to our aging, meaning that if we’re following the same approximate rules, Disgaea demons wouldn’t be of legal age until about 1800. At 18, they’d literally be infants still, or so the available information seems to indicate. You could argue “well they’re over 18,” but that doesn’t change that they appear to be practically newborn. By those same sort of rules, using “They’re 1000 years old!” doesn’t really cover anyone, because physically (and very arguably mentally, in most all of NIS’ localization work I’ve sampled) they’d be more akin to the pre-pubescent girls they appear to be than a grown woman in a child’s body.

            It’s a weak bit of rationalization being used to excuse, essentially, pedophilia of a sort, and – just as an argument to everyone that seems to be standing against the two of us more than being directed at you – that is a fetish that is difficult to accept because it results in sexual desires for children who are both legally unable to consent (which, again, tacking 0′s onto the age doesn’t necessarily solve) but also quite likely don’t know they’re own sexual preferences yet. There’s very few situations in which this doesn’t somehow make the fetishist in question into a predator. Further, the whole moe thing seems to be fetishising innocence (or the appearance of said) itself, which does nothing to make the person getting off to it look any better.

            Even if you get into a bit more arguable of a gray area (I’d argue the 16-18 range where puberty has taken a large effect and sexuality is starting to be more defined mentally), you’re still dealing with an age where peer pressure is incredibly effective and the right arguments paired with the wrong actions (ie. taking advantage of some girl’s desire to “experiment”) could do a lot of damage in multiple regards, so even Mugen Souls’ (or Disgaea’s, since I used that as an example) “older” cast members (say the 15-1600 year olds) are very arguably in a state that trembles a bit under scrutiny. It’s not going to make someone look like garbage as much as getting off to what appears to be a ten year old in a bath tub, but it’s still a serious caution zone that any publisher would be completely in the right to consider taboo.

            I realize fetishes are a weird psychological thing that one can’t really rein in with any ease, but that doesn’t excuse the nature of what that fetish entails, and it certainly doesn’t excuse the way these girls tend to be portrayed. The fetish itself seems to be the act of violating someone’s innocence, and frankly that’s a pretty impossible thing to defend (-cough-NoOneSeesWhatWeSee-cough-).

          • NoOneSeesWhatWeSee

            I’m pretty sure that the age of consent is based on mental maturity rather than ‘physical maturity’. We haven’t made porn with people with dwarfism illegal. And we haven’t made any such laws surrounding secondary sex characteristics, either. Though it appears there have been some occassional movements and decisions to try to body police the way sexualized people and characters are. Using the Tanner scale and so forth. Though it has been highly controversial.

            The most important thing morally is mental maturity. Telling people what they can look like and ‘be sexy’ is body policing. What makes someone able or not able to consent is a mental rather than physical reality. You don’t require a certainl facial type, height, or amount of secondary sex characteristics to be able to consent to sex.

            And the aging you describe in Disgaea seems to refer to physical, rather than mental aging. If transhuman technologies soon allowed 50 year olds to become physically 20, they wouldn’t suddenly become 20 year olds. As their age is determined by how long they’ve been alive. So using the ‘dog years’ analogy doesn’t work here. Demons wouldn’t be infants at 18, and most certainly wouldn’t be mentally infants. There’s no evidence that 18 year olds in Disgaea are anything like infants. And Etna may be a bit selfish, but I doubt anyone would argue she has a childish personality, especially if they saw her behaving as she does in the the body of a 40 year old man. There’s no evidence that Disgaea works this way. And you’re placing a premium on looks, as if they were equal or somewhere similarly equal to mind. That’s body policing. A physical age or looks are not a real age or anything like it.

          • http://www.hamstapowah.com/ Zaron

            There’s a metric load of this so I’m just gonna take on what I can.

            Etna, Laharl and Flonne fall into my stated mental “grey area” (16-18 approximation), and of those three only Etna In think really exhibits any signs of maturity whatsoever. This could largely just be personal perspective with regards to Laharl, but Flonne in particular (despite being the oldest) is mentally speaking not someone I’d think is capable of making the wisest of decisions of a sexual nature (increasingly so as you go back down the timeline. If you branch out past the cast everyone knows, someone like Raspberyl is nearly 1600 but looks more like she’s 10, but could be argued to act closer to the 16-18 age archetypes; she could just be short and flat, like you’ve argued, and mentally if she’s solid then I want to say there’s no problem with it.

            That said, we’re still dealing with both public perception and the legal climate of the territories in question, and I’ve heard tell of bills that have come up in several countries over the years to classify anime lolis as child pornography, which puts NISA in a tough bind of balancing being true to the source and staying out of legal trouble that I don’t think anyone is really appreciating here. If you know Beryl as a character, you’re not going to feel as offput by an awkward scenario as someone who just knows about said scenario. That’s the public perception issue demonstrated in a nutshell.

            I’m not saying “flat/short girls = kiddie porn”, either, but there are, even in anime, some fairly distinct visual forms that define someone’s age within a ballpark, and in both Western and Eastern animation styles, the handling of child anatomy is pretty distinctive from the handling of adults. Pair a childlike body with a childlike personality or way of behavior and you have a cocktail of shady reasoning to deal with. I’m not saying every situation ends up in this boat, but given Compile’s reputation and what I’ve played of their games, I don’t care how old Nepgear or ROM/RAM are numerically when they are how they are and even people in the game are responding to someone desiring them lustfully in a questioning manner. CH has proven to me that they can make some seriously uncomfortable shit (while trying to be light-hearted, no less) that in no way ever has me stop and go “no it’s okay these girls behave and think like adults they just look like kids.” I haven’t played MZ because mk.2 did such a number on my faith in CH to not make their games some weird form of pedo creepy, so while I don’t know the characters first hand we’re talking about a developer I really have zero faith in making this anything people can rationalize away as okay.

            As for dwarfism, that’s… really not the same thing at all. >_>;

          • NoOneSeesWhatWeSee

            You’re right, Etna seems far more mature than Flonne. In particular Flonne seems very naive. That’s why I used Etna as an example.

            I also agree that stating a character is old, but characterizing their personality as immature and childish is far less of a justification. Adult stated characters should have adult personalities, especially if they’re going to be sexualized in any form or fashion.

            “I’m not saying “flat/short girls = kiddie porn”
            Well good then, I appreciate that.

            I would also like to add that I’m in no way okay with the sexualization of innocence. That has an exploitative power dynamic where the subject or observer, in the subject object dichotomy, is meant to feel in a position of power over the character.

            If any when “moe” means the sexualization and fetishization of innocence, then no, I am not for that. Though I think that moe is a very broad term and I certainly don’t think that moe itself should be characterized as the fetishization of innocence.

            I agree with you that Compile Heart should not sexualize innocence.

          • NoOneSeesWhatWeSee

            It is nowhere near a weak justification or rationalization that a character look younger but be older or mentally mature. And to place such importance on looks as invalidating all justification is awfullly shallow. Wanting an older, mature, mentally consenting partner is quite valid. And the best moral and ethical justification that lolicons have for persuing their immutable sexual orientation in an ethical and mentally healthy fashion. No matter what your orientation is, you should want to direct it at consenting adults. Lolicons can’t help what kind of body type they’re attracted to. Studies have proved it time and time again to be incurable. It is a sexual orientation. Possibly related and connected to some orientation dominated by attraction to androgyny, as lolis and shotas are androgynous bodied. And certainly not something that seems any more changable than any other sexual orientation.

            There is, however, directing one’s immutable sexuality in the most moral and ethical fashion possible. And there is everything in the world rational and justified about placing emphasis and importance on age and mental maturity. If someone has this orientation, they should most certainly do everything in their power to direct their desires toward consenting adults. Even in fictional worlds. It is not a cheap and worthless effort to justify an orientation that people make adult loli characters. If someone cannot enjoy adult physical characteristics like secondary sex characteristics, they should most certainly still direct their sexuality toward adults. No matter how many people in the world find their attempts at justifying their orientation pathetic and feeble.

            Just a hypothetical situation I will bring in to make my case. Taking possible future transhumanism into consideration again. What if future technology allowed grown lolicon men to transform or replace their bodies, making them loli characters. What if, if that technology was possible and in our future, Akihabara were littered on the streets with vendors selling, ‘replacement loli bodies’ to would be otaku. And lolicon could simply have sex with each other, as consenting adults. Are these otaku, who are doing nothing wrong to real life children, and respecting their bodily autonomy, hurting children by adorning their body type and sexualizing it? Are these men, who transform into lolis themselves, just attempting to poorly rationalize and justify something that is “inherently immoral”? And how are these fictional adult loli characters in anime, manga, and video games, any different from from grown lolicon men uploading their conciousness into robotic loli replacement bodies?

            Because, if many futurologists and transhumanists are right, this reality could very well be in our own human future, not just a hypothetical science fictional scenario. Though, to be honest, the point was just for comparison. The point is that adult loli characters aren’t just a poor excuse, they’re an attempt for people to be as moral as they can be without complete and utter, absolute sexual repression.

          • NoOneSeesWhatWeSee

            “The fetish itself seems to be the act of violating someone’s innocence”
            I am a very empathetic person, and I would absolutely never, ever want to see other people be harmed.

            And I, like many people on the anti-lolicon side of the wagon, like to prefer to focus on debating the area of intent, and what the drawings actually represent and why people would be attracted to them in the first place. As so many people on the pro-lolicon side already argue the “they’re just drawings” argument repeatedly for me. To what I somewhat disagree in many cases. Intent does matter, and there are important arguments for intents to be made. Which typically, aren’t. Because people are too busy comparing lolicon to violent video games and the like.

            But I must indeed use that argument myself here. What is in the mind is in the mind, and drawings are just that, drawings. And no fetish, not acted upon in a way that harms others, is violating someone’s innocence. Saying that someone’s fetish, thoughts, is harming others, is tantamount to encouraging the idea that there is thought crime. And while I will agree that some thoughts are unhealthy, sexual orientations are immutable.

            There is no cure for being a lolicon. And all attempts to cure it have failed. It isn’t a malleable fetish, it is a sexual orientation and I believe it to be related to attraction to androgyny. Being attracted to youthful things like flat chests or hairless bodies is certainly not, by and of itself, robbing anyone of their innocence. There is nothing sadistic or ill about such thoughts, either. If you’re a lolicon, you’re a lolicon, if you like flat chests, you like flat chests, it isn’t something you can change. And it doesn’t make sense to suggest someone having non-sadistic sexual feelings they cannot help, is someone violating someone’s innocence.

            I would hope that you wouldn’t suggest I am promoting any sexual feelings that aren’t innocent or kind, or for the violation of anyone’s innocence. Because that is most certainly the opposite of what I am suggesting. I think that everyone should be excellent to each other and treat each other, all people, with kindness, love, and deference.

          • KANADE2

            “I realize fetishes are a weird psychological thing that one can’t really rein in with any ease, but that doesn’t excuse the nature of what that fetish entails, and it certainly doesn’t excuse the way these girls tend to be portrayed. The fetish itself seems to be the act of violating someone’s innocence, and frankly that’s a pretty impossible thing to defend”

            It’s fairly easy to defend this fetish/act because that ” someone” is a fictional character,and not a actual human being. Some people view violating the innocence of a fictional person being no different than taking the life of a fictional character. Sure it may be a bit disturbing,but since no actual human being was hurt it really isn’t a big deal to them.

          • Oscar Alberto Abrego Suarez

            However as a legal point of view the character above 18 is already view as an adult so appereance is irrelevant.

            Wich is the main reason you can use that and avoid any legal issues.

          • NoOneSeesWhatWeSee

            The 1,000 year old thing does seem to get companies out of trouble sometimes. Like with Dead or Alive where the stated age of the characters is changed upon Western releases. Though I certainly don’t think that’s always the case. In Dance in the Vampire Bund, the making of the character Mina Tepes very old and very mature mentally appears to be an artistic and personal decision. Rather than a way to avoid controversy. As Astarotte no Omocha, by contrast, explicitely stated its character to be a child. Dance in the Vampire Bund and Astarotte no Omocha are very different stories and have ‘loli’ characters with very different maturity levels.

            While in some cases, like Dead or Alive, age is simply an excuse. In works like Dance in the Vampire Bund, it appears more a personal artistic and possibly moral decision. If a company is making a game with loli fanservice or the like, not out of personal desire, but to extract money out of the lolicon fanbase, then it is possible that the age is only stated to hopefully avoid some possible controversy or trouble. Though it could be possible that such a developer would also do such a thing to also feel less personally guilty for their pandering. If a work is developed by a lolicon, then there is also a strong possiblity that such a character is characterized as an adult, despite having a childlike body, in an effort to direct and express their feelings in a more moral fashion. I think that many loli character creators created ‘adult loli’ characters, as they have a sexual orientation that leads in that direction, but wish to express those feelings in the most moral fashion possible. Also, many lolicon specifically clamor for “adult loli” characters, also surely because they wish to feel less immoral in their feelings.

            Whether personal desire of an artist, or pandering, I believe that the desire to make loli characters adults, is rooted in far more than just the desire to get out of trouble. And, due to the fact the characters look like children, I think there’s a strong limit to how much such claims get them out of trouble. It seems to me like in many cases the desire for adult rather than child lolis, comes from the lolicons themselves, rather than the simple desire to avoid consequence.

            By the way, I really appreciate how you’ve responded to my posts on the matter. And you’re right that the content is indeed just a bonus game that isn’t essential to the main game. Whether minigames and sidequests and the like are a particularly important form of content I suppose depends on the person.

          • Oscar Alberto Abrego Suarez

            You posts are very good im just mad at people that has this mentality and clamore for NISA head just because a feature that obviously is not part of the core experience is not present not because NISA doesnt want to but because they have to in order to bring the game wich focus lies in gameplay and story (And insane damage).

            I personally dont take issues on lolicon at all mainly because liking something on a game doesnt mean you will like it in real life, it just infuriates me to no end this whole debacle.

            Sorry if it came as an insult, im hotheaded most of the time.

            I apreciate your input as well, thanks :)

          • KANADE2

            The thing is some people just feel strongly against censorship in general which is why they fight tooth,and nail,and don’t consider anything else. I guess it doesn’t help that the core experience of the first game was kinda terrible which is why some people have nicknamed MS the poor man’s Disgaea….

            Sadly the debacle isn’t going to end any time soon given there is no middle ground for the people complaining about the censorship.

        • http://www.hamstapowah.com/ Zaron

          The point falls apart, though, because the content in question actually does more to limit the audience on western shores than inspire it. I didn’t buy the first game because Compile had me so wary after Neptunia mk.2, which I never finished simply because things were rapidly getting too weird and pervy for me. I’d like to think after years of Japanese stuff I’ve built a decent threshold, but around the time some tubby thing wanted to rape a child I was pretty much done.

          Some things, culturally, can be problematic. If Neptunia’s business with the little sisters and their adversaries got NIS an M rating, moe bath scenes could be really pushing the ESRB’s comfort zone, and if you think the sales are bad now, see how well they do if the game gets an AO slapped on it and retailers refuse to carry the title at all.

          As for “if it’s now whole, don’t bother,” you’d really rather not have the game *at all* than have to forsake one (non-mandatory and hardcode compensated) piece of it? That’s like saying you won’t buy Earthbound unless they put the red crosses back despite their fears of getting sued, and I don’t know about you, but I’m glad we got Earthbound back in the day even if they did swap coffee for booze.

          • NoOneSeesWhatWeSee

            There’s a lot of different anecdotal. I’m not sure how large the audience for this game could have gotten. And how much censoring the game could convince people put off by such content, to buy the game.

            Some of the best selling Western titles contain extremely immoral material. In fact, much of the best selling, multi-million copy selling, high budget game titles appear to contain a lot of immoral violent, sexual, and misogynistic content.

            I don’t think we can be quite sure that Mugen Souls would get an Adults Only label. It’s just a bathing scene, and it definitely doesn’t contain explicit sexuality.

          • Oscar Alberto Abrego Suarez

            Well said.

  • Shady Shariest

    …Should anyone be…Surprised by this?

  • Learii

    so they still have the battle ships in this one? nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

  • Sentsuizan_93

    Eh. Not a big deal to be honest. Seeing Kaishou’s reply to Tyler pretty much confirmed why this got censored. All the minigame is just stat boosting, just like the first game. Anything else is pretty much fanservice. and looking at this video link: http://youtu.be/0g2Z7MYtCkg, it’s easy to see why. Couple this up with the suggestive moaning, and you’d be silly to even think this wasn’t going to get removed. (Link may be NSFW, but necessary to this discussion)

  • Oscar Alberto Abrego Suarez

    Its okay as the bath minigame is just there for the sake of the pandering of the loli fanbase, the core game will be untouched.

    Stop whining already!

  • Zikrayrus “Zikk” Dis Pear

    Sad that stuff was removed but I am more than willing to give this a try. We gotta support niche titles yes?

    • SerendipityX

      The niche community is very strange. Sometimes they don’t know what they want or what they want to support. They also choose the strangest things to boycott over.

      • Zikrayrus “Zikk” Dis Pear

        Well, I would expect a niche community to be strange…considering that it is niche.

        But yeah, things can get very funny at times. People can just have the oddest way of getting their point across. Which…doesn’t solve anything.

        • SerendipityX

          I think it all just comes down to cultural differences. I would imagine that there are still plenty of people who are going to buy the game regardless. I just dropped in for a good laugh and for good arguments.

  • Wolfs_Rain

    I wasn’t sure what to think until I saw the video. I understand being against censorship on principle, but people are seriously boycotting a game because they won’t be able to fondle virtual little girls? C’mon, is this really the hill you want to die on?

  • Oltheros

    Don’t even shill for NISA. Censorship is a horrible practice.

    • Armane

      “Censorship is telling a man he can’t have a steak just because a baby can’t chew it.” – Mark Twain

      Not that I’m all that interested in this game, but if we don’t speak up now, who knows what will be next.

    • http://www.hamstapowah.com/ Zaron

      Censorship is a horrible practice… unless it makes something more or less illegal where it would be going. Because I don’t think “bath time with little girls!” is a huge selling point outside of a very particular subset of Americans.

      • NoOneSeesWhatWeSee

        I don’t think it’s illegal. There’s no sex involved whatsoever.
        It’s debatable that there’s a level of sexuality involved.

        And someone is going to sell to that subset of Americans, I’m sure.

  • Skeptika Crediblus

    Normally I’m anti-censorship, but yeah, they went a bridge too far with this one. Maybe if they just changed out the mini game for, say, a level of Prinny 2…..

  • FitzpatrickPhillips

    If they removed dual audio, suddenly people want “the original version of the game and this is unacceptable” but if they remove a part of actual gameplay then suddenly its wrong to have a problem with it and positivity is the only answer..
    You guys are a bunch of hypocrites.

    That said, the game isn’t even very good and the first bombed in sales. Not sure whats going on at NISA these days.

  • NoOneSeesWhatWeSee

    I didn’t want to give off my opinions on the subject of lolicon while I was here on Siliconera. And now I’ve already done so.

    I already feel less cute and innocent now. I hope not everybody sees me as a monster from now on.

    • Bigabu Beaze

      I see you as a monster but I’m not everyone.

      • NoOneSeesWhatWeSee

        ;_;

    • https://twitter.com/Ni_Go_Zero_Ichi Project 2501

      DIE MONSTER, YOU DON’T BELONG IN THIS WORLD

      • Bigabu Beaze

        Good one dude.

  • Dark Lord Ash

    I’d be lying if I said didn’t give me a bad case of the cringes. But fact of the matter is that censorship is still censorship. Cutting away the content isn’t going to make the people who weren’t going to buy this game any more likely to and those who wanted a whole game will most likely lose interest. If Aksys can get away with the nonsense you can pull off in Record of Agarest War 2 and slide with a T rating, then NISA’s excuse sort of falls apart. This “Your fun ends where my feelings begin” attitude that we as westerns have needs to disappear. It’s 2013 with 2014 not too far off for Christ sake.

  • ZekeFreek

    I don’t like censorship but I understand their reasons. They can’t afford to resubmit things to ratings boards if they don’t like it. That shit costs a lot of dough and for a small company like NISA is probably a substantial piece of the budget. That being said, people are stupid and won’t understand so I guess I have to sit through this shitstorm of a debate once again…

  • Omnicidal Neutral

    I feel like I should be put on a watchlist for even looking at that thumbnail, Jesus Christ.

  • Oscar Alberto Abrego Suarez

    Apparently witouth this the game is unplayable because THIS i what makes a game and not gameplay and story.

  • NoOneSeesWhatWeSee

    I don’t know about unplayable.

    I just think that some people are moe fans before they are “gamers”. A lot of people who aren’t gamers play games and don’t necessarily only consider gameplay when they consider whether they’re going to buy something. People who play video games come from all sorts of walks of life.

    I think that the people who seriously care about this minigame are going to import the Japanese versions of these games.

  • Oscar Alberto Abrego Suarez

    The moe is still there though you can still admire them and what not.

    What i meant with unplayable was the people sugesting the game to not be brought over for just a bunch of CGs.

  • NoOneSeesWhatWeSee

    You’re very right, they are just a few CGs that can only be mildly interacted with. I wouldn’t say the CGs are the exact same thing. As there is a little bit of interaction going on. It is a minigame, not just slides. But there are certainly alternatives, and just having the CGs would accomplish a lot. And one could import the Japanese version of this game.

    I think what people are bothered by most is the mere idea of “you can’t have this”. I think that many people don’t like the idea that something can be allowed to pass in one country, but must be censored in another country. I doubt there are many who really truly think that losing one minigame makes the game unplayable. People were the same about Tera, you can just modify the game. And many of the Elin’s costumes are just as showy as any of the censored outfits. And the clothing has no bearing on the gameplay. How hard Kelsaik or Shandra Manaya is, or so forth. But people still aren’t satisfied. As what bothers people still about this censorship is the idea that something like this is okay for Korea, but must be censored in America and Europe.

  • Oscar Alberto Abrego Suarez

    Cultural differences will always be present but punishing NISA just for trying to bring the game wich focus is still gameplay and funny story is absolubtely disgusting.

    Its not NISA fault these things have to happen and they have to withstand their annoying and whinny fanbase.

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