Why Zelda and Sheik Are Different Characters In Super Smash Bros. For 3DS

By Sato . October 1, 2014 . 3:12am

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Unlike the past installments of the series in Melee and Brawl, Zelda and Sheik are their own characters in Super Smash Bros. for 3DS, rather than players being able to transform between the two. In this week’s issue of Famitsu magazine, director Masahiro Sakurai explained why this is the case. [Thanks, Hachima.]

 

“It’s basically due to the 3DS’ limitations,” said Sakurai, when asked why Zelda and Sheik, and Samus and Zerosuit Samus, are different characters. “It was impossible to have both characters exist together [as one] on 3DS.”

 

He continued, “However, reaching that limit can sometimes lead in good directions. Transforming characters had the drawback of ambiguous tactics and such, and I believe that they have become more fresh now.”

 

When asked about why Super Smash Bros. for 3DS will be compatible with the the New Nintnedo 3DS’ C-Stick but not the regular 3DS’ Circle Pad Pro, he explained that this was due to CPU limitations on the 3DS, but with the higher capabilities on the New Nintendo 3DS, it isn’t an issue.

 

One fan provided feedback, saying that their connection has been pretty laggy during online fights in Japan.

 

“It varies according to your connection,” responded Sakurai. “When the controls lag, to put it simply, it’s an issue with the connecttion speed. If you notice it lagging at all times, then there’s a high chance that there’s a problem with your connection.”

 

Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS will release in North America and Europe on October 3, 2014.


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  • s07195

    Limitations, limitations, limitations… :(
    I’m still having fun here…

  • David García Abril

    I don’t buy it.

    The system is supposed to be at least as powerful as the GameCube, and even though most games don’t reach that level, games like “Resident Evil: Revelations” and “Kingdom Hearts 3D” have proven it’s perfectly possible.

    The only reason I can think of is that the machine is severely unbalanced and/or they got lazy, or he is using a half-assed PR excuse to not have to deal with the pro community’s rage.

    • Xerain

      I would say it’s probably balanced differently form a game cube. Like how one PC has a better processor, but the other has a better GPU. They balance out in many areas, but each one will have something it can do that the other can’t.

      I have a sneaking suspicion the transformation mechanic required both characters to be active at once, meaning there are basically 5 characters at once. I bet the 3DS is technically capable of allowing the transformation, but they probably found they could get a stable FPS with more complex level designs than had they included it. They choose to sacrifice the Gimmick of two characters to benefit all the stages.

      Or something along those lines.

      • J_Joestar

        agreed, although it affects more than 2 characters as the multiple character active issue would also be related to why Charizard is solo and Ice Climbers is gone.

        • Xerain

          I always assumed Charizard was solor because that’s what people wanted in the first place. (Though I must confess, I like Bulbasaur a slightly more.)

          I kind of forgot about the ice climbers, though, I must admit.

    • Cazar

      It’s more complicated than that. The 3DS and the GameCube aren’t really comparable. The 3DS has a more modern featureset which enables it to do some fancy things with graphics but ultimately it’s still really limited.

      As an example, the Wii was basically a souped up GameCube, and the New 3DS is a souped up 3DS. So if the 3DS was on par with the GameCube then the New 3DS should be similar to the Wii right? Yet they still have to down-make Xenoblade Chronicles to the point of it looking like complete ass to get to run on the New 3DS. Apples and oranges.

      Of course, it’s doubtful that it’d be 100% impossible for them to implement them as one character, but what he’s probably saying is that it wouldn’t be possible without severely compromising their target level of performance and graphic fidelity.

      But I don’t really see why they would try to make it into an excuse. If they really wanted to cover it up they would just say they make more sense as separate characters. The “pro” community would have no reason to rage because they prefer them as separate characters anyway.

      • Aaron K Stone

        Provide evidenced that Xenoblade is being downgraded for the New 3DS.

        • Kitsune

          Common sense.

          • HarakiriKami

            It looks the same too me.

          • Slayven19

            It doesn’t to me and it probably won’t to plenty of people after the real gameplay vids show up and not stock vids.

          • HarakiriKami

            Videos really dont tell you what the IQ of the game on the actual 3DS.

            Its not the same quality as pure downsampling but it looks like a smaller form of the game we played on the Wii.

            Also nintendo tends to reveal games in their early state, so they always look better by reveal

          • Aaron K Stone

            Gonna need a better rebuttal than that to convince me.

        • Oxybelis

          240p is already a big downgrade. Textures are downgraded too.

          And Gamecube has much more raw power than 3DS.

          • Aaron K Stone

            Without a direct comparison of images I don’t believe the textures have been downgraded from what has been shown. The 240p issue is to do with screen and not with the lack of the new 3DS power.

          • Alter

            From the video, it’s clearly downgraded, especially they way it do Level of Details (LOD), it’s very agressive.

    • Teddy

      The issue isn’t that it’s impossible. (The circlepad thing I mean in particular) It’s a resource-allocation thing. What he’s basically saying is that they’re using every bit of processing power they can to make the game run as smooth as possible in 3D. If they used more, you’d start to see framerate dropping, and you’d get bugs showing up from the inconsistent framerate because the most efficient code tends to be tied to frames. The code for melee is not the same as the code for Smash Bros 3DS. Features may be the same, but how they’re implemented on different architecture would be completely different. What’s more, the 3DS may be on par with the Gamecube in theory, but in practice it’s about half of that, because everything has to be rendered twice for 3D mode.

    • NeptuniasBeard

      He’s a Nintendo developer making a Nintendo game on a Nintendo system. If there’s anybody you can believe in this situation, it’s him. What the hell kind of PR card is “our system wasn’t good enough”?

      And lazy? Really? So the game has40+ unique characters, bonus modes, recomposed music , custom moves, rebalanced cast and tons of other goodies put. Even a good online battle system, but because they hit a couple roadblocks that couldn’t be overcome in a reasonable amount of time, suddenly they’re lazy and not, you know, human.

  • Highasthesky

    Good. Even if this game was never on 3DS, i still like the separation of the characters.

  • Keiji Johnson

    Just two days left… Just two days LEFT…! (…>_<…)

  • Kumiko Akimoto

    because any idiot can use some quick deduction skills and figure out that they play differently.

    • SlickRoach

      But that’s what made them so wonderful when they were one character, having access to two diverging playstyles on the fly. Now they’re 50% of the characters they used to be…and STILL have the same final smash.

      • Slayven19

        ZZS doesn’t have the same final smash as samus.

        • SlickRoach

          I was referring to Zelda and Sheik having the Light Arrows.

      • raygunner659

        I dunno. I sort of like Sheik’s new B moves. Zelda’s new down B seems a bit more useless (than becoming Sheik, haha jk) in comparison, but I don’t think they’re 50%. I could believe 75%. Samus and ZSS transformation’s were forced after a Final Smash, so you didn’t really have access to them. Pokemon Trainer’s fatigue mechanic was a bit annoying to deal with and I certainly don’t believe Charizard is 33% of a character (although I weep for Ivysaur). And the Final Smash point is…well you can’t really blame Sheik. She hasn’t really been in a LoZ game for awhile. And Zelda can’t really have a new Final Smash since well…Light Arrows is sort of what she does…

      • Justin Graham

        What they lost in their transformation/transition they gained in more unique moves. I personally hated playing as Zelda/Sheik in Melee and Brawl because I would often transform accidentally. And playing as Samus/Zero Suit Samus was even worse, because the only way to shift back and forth between them in battle was through their Final Smashes. I welcome the opportunity to try these characters out as individuals that aren’t bound together.

      • Kumiko Akimoto

        Some people like having one style or the other, it’s just how it is.Not everyone wants to switch. It makes sense to give people more variety that way then just smashing to styles together.

  • Tonton Ramos

    And I like them being different but why is Shiek still having Light Arrows? She could have used a harp just like Hyrule Warriors

    • Justin Graham

      Well, Link and Toon Link share the same Final Smash, as well. And Sheik is still Zelda in disguise, so…

      • Tonton Ramos

        And Samus and Zero Suit Samus are the same as well but have different Final Smash so?

        • Justin Graham

          Zero Suit Samus doesn’t have an arm cannon, which is the basis of Samus’s Final Smash, and the original ZSS Final Smash in Brawl was the reassembly of her suit.

          For Zelda and Sheik, the Light Arrows were never dependent on character state.

          • Tonton Ramos

            Yet both of them are Samus Aran just different… and you also said Shiek is still Zelda in disguise yet plays differently.

          • Justin Graham

            As I said before, Samus’s Final Smashes differ because of the context of her suit’s status. She can’t use her hyper arm cannon blast while in Zero Suit form because she doesn’t have her arm cannon to fire with. Zelda has the power of the Light Arrows regardless of what form she takes.

    • kagekiri

      Yeah, it’s unfortunate. The final smashes in general are still horribly balanced in effectiveness and in how creative they are.

      Some of the crappy/boring final smashes stay in with little change (Sheik’s Light Arrows, Peach time, Jigglypuff’s puff up, the boring Landmasters for Fox/Falco, the boring Link triforce attacks, the Olimar rocket that’s also become an item already, UGH), some veteran characters get much more useful (if less mechanically creative) new Final Smashes (like Kirby’s super sword, ROB’s super laser instead of the intermittent laser sparks), and even some new characters have embarrassingly meh final smashes, like Rosalina & Luma’s Super Stars that barely seem to do anything.

  • XaviIniesta

    That’s why…? I thought he realized that people don’t want to have a wasted move slot (Down+B). (Besides people who utilize both characters)
    Well I guess we got lucky because of 3DS’s hardware limitations…

    • Leonard Norwood Jr.

      I may be in the minority here, but I had no problem with the Down+B for Zelda/Sheik, I thought I found them as Zelda being more defensive, slow but powerful magic attacks, and Sheik being more offensive and quick. They also had access to more B special moves, even though it was separate for the two, for me felt like I had 6 special moves each for up, down, and left or right directions.
      Brawl at the time I also knew the difference in the outcome of their Final Smash, regardless that if any character is hit with the light arrows, takes a quick exit stage left or right off the stage. For Zelda, they get send flying diagonally left or right, Sheik was a outright straight forward launch left or right. And that was it.
      I do agree on the new Smash, Sheik should have a different Final Smash, as Zelda is well on hand with the light arrows the most, it makes since as some Zelda games, she used the light arrows. Sheik uses the harp, and as such was never seen using the light arrows. I would try to put a bit of Hyrule Warriors Sheik and (his) Musou Special as an example, but I’ll leave it at that.

      • XaviIniesta

        Yeah, this was mainly a problem for people who only played either Zelda or Shiek, as they were left with one less B move than the rest of the cast. I only liked to use Zelda and not Shiek, so I felt like my character was a bit gimped because of this.

        As for the Final Smash, I would have liked to see a different one for Shiek as it doesn’t really fit Shiek, as you say. But for me finally getting a 4th B move was a primary concern, so I’m happy about that. Hopefully Sakurai gets a bit more creative with Final Smashes for the next game.

  • antithesis

    Still a bit salty that the 3DS limitations took away transformation. I love playing as transformation characters due to the fact that each transformation had different moveset.

    It also makes it more confusing for opponents.

    • raygunner659

      Well on the other hand, some people find it more confusing to make a switch mid-game rather than just having another move as an option, since the transformation usually has a completely different style. This change really lets you focus on one. I know very few people who change into Zelda much when playing Sheik, and even less people who don’t mind changing into Zero Suit. Not to mention the transformations themselves, like Pokemon Trainer usually took long enough that you wouldn’t want to be doing them while your opponent(s) are still on the field.

      • antithesis

        I do, Zelda for more defensive and Sheik for offensive.

        I loved PT since I constantly alternate depending on the situation.

        Style change during mid combat is precisely why I love transformation. But it seems like I hold a minority opinion.

        • raygunner659

          I am also one of those who likes to play both characters. I’m also competent enough at both Samus and ZSS to not mind the switch. And I liked playing Pokemon Trainer for the most part. Just putting some thoughts and reasonings out there. I personally thought PT took way too long changing for you to adapt to situations (in fact you usually just set yourself up) especially since you can’t do it in the air, but they were fun, and if it worked for you, you probably know them better than I do.

        • British_Otaku

          Shulk is your guy if you want someone who can switch styles midbattle. He is one of my mains and has five styles in addition to his normal one.

          Green – Increase jump and Up-B recovery.
          Blue – Speed is increased.

          Yellow – You become a tank as far as taking damage or getting smashed a distance but move slow.

          Purple – You do a lot more damage, but knockback is reduced

          Red – A lot more knockback to foes, not much damage.

          You can switch styles in mid air, while moving as long as you aren’t attacking (so switching to Green to recover then using Up – B is fine) and there is no lag assuming that you interrupt the animation by ducking or attacking/dodging (which stops your input for the style so make sure you don’t get interrupted). You can cancel a style as well.

          PT and Zelda/Sheik were cool, but their switching never meshed well with the game. I guess Shulk’s changes are just very vast stat adjustments but they match better with the pace and don’t have you at greater risk than any taunt.

  • Frankie

    It really is a shame they focused so much on the 3DS version of the game. I understand Nintendo had to put it on both because the Wii U is not selling as well as they hoped, but the 3DS is pulling down the console version.

    • HarakiriKami

      ??? They decided to put it on both systems in 2011 before any of them were even released lol

      • Frankie

        lol good point. I forgot when the game was announced in January 2013, that development had not begun yet and Sukarai did not know they were making another one.

  • SlickRoach

    The more I hear about it, the more I wish they had scrapped the 3DS version of this game so they could go all out with the Wii U version. This is starting to feel really gimped now…

    • HarakiriKami

      ??? Transformations being cut is a good thing. If you want to blame the 3DS for character parity go right on ahead lol

      Smash 3DS and Smash Wii U are seperate versions developed simultaneously. Not ports of each other.

      Sakurai would have had more time with the wii U version though if he didnt have to make the 3DS version

      • SlickRoach

        But they have the same roster right? And it seems all these changes (like the exclusion of Ice climbers) is due to the 3DS not being able to handle them. So it seems like if the 3DS can’t handle, obviously it won’t make it to the Wii U version since both games have the same roster.

        • Slayven19

          That’s not what he’s saying, if he didn’t make a 3ds version all the time would have gone into making a better wiiU version and Ice climbers wouldn’t be cut.

        • HarakiriKami

          Yeah. Roster is the only single constant between both games

          • dawnbomb

            thats the point. its because of that, that the 3DS is holding the wii U back. if they had a different roster, or if they just didn’t make a 3DS edition and put all focus on wii U, it would have more modes, be better overall, and characters wouldn’t be cut. but now because of the 3DS edition, and the roster having to be the same, we cannot use ice climbers on the wii U because of 3DS limitations.

            i fully agree the 3DS edition should not have happened, its really sucks that its holding the game back.

          • HarakiriKami

            … Characters have little of anything to do with modes

          • HarakiriKami

            This is a really stupid thought process

          • Tonton Ramos

            if only the 3DS was as powerful as the Vita then we get Ice Climbers plus revamped moveset…

      • Haganeren

        Yeah, a lot more time. And even if it’s “not a port”. 3DS and Wii U are still two very different system.

        Heck ! If he didn’t have the obligation of making the content of the Wii U and the 3DS identical, i’m sure he could have taken a lot more liberty with the cast and even the number of stage. (since they aren’t the same depending of the version)

        • HarakiriKami

          The content isnt identical.

          The character roster is the only thing that’s the same ( as are the base mechanics)

    • jugss

      In terms sales 3ds wins.Cheaper to make and has better install base. Without the 3ds version,where would they get sales in case the wii u one flops? We’re forgetting it’s business. It needs to sell.

    • fairysun

      But .. but … that means I won’t be able to play Smash Bros this year. :(
      Seriously, 3DS has more player base than Wii U, which means more profit for Ninty.

      • Prinnydoom

        Not to mention that there were a lot of people hoping for a portable release of SSB ever since the first DS.

      • FatMasterBass

        The Wii U version is coming out this year.

    • NeptuniasBeard

      The 3ds version is likely gonna be their main money maker, so if any version was getting cut…

      I do kinda miss the ice climbers though

      • http://twitch.tv/Mogarane Mogarane

        I highly doubt the 3DS sales are going to overshadow the Wii U sales. When smash 4 comes out on Wii U 100% sure that Wii U sales are going to skyrocket. I bet that most smash fans are going to want the Wii U over the 3ds, that’s why the 3ds version is coming out first because they know it would sell less if they came at the same time.

    • James Robert Thompson

      I’d prefer they just mad two different games, but using most of the core code. Release the 3DS, listen to the complaints from it (and let’s be honest there’s quite a lot this time around) and announce a Wii U game that’s learned from it and has a bunch more characters and content shortly thereafter.

      • MagcargoMan

        Or you know, just make one good game instead of making one version deliberately inferior to make the other look better?

  • Desk

    So it seems that the answer will always be “It’s basically due to the 3DS’ limitations”

    • HarakiriKami

      Of course. Smash Bros pushes the 3DS so much that it cant even use basic OS functions while the game is playing

      • Barrylocke89

        So does this mean that Smash 3ds can’t use Miiverse and screenshots?

        • doubleO7

          I dunno about screenshots, but you cannot use Miiverse while the game is running.

        • J_Joestar

          iirc, they said you would have to use Smash’s screenshot functions to take screenshots and you could post them on Miiverse afterwards.

        • AuraGuyChris

          While the game is running? No. I haven’t seen a single snapshot in the Japanese Miiverse community for it.

      • Alter

        lol so weak

    • Prinnydoom

      And people wonder why there is a Super 3DS being released. Because of this very issue.

    • NeptuniasBeard

      Guess that explains the cut Tharja trophy. Her cleavage was beyond the 3ds capabilities. Hopefully she returns in a potential New 3ds version

      • lackofstyle

        Tharja trophy was cut! that’s it! 0/10 will not buy!

        • 古戸ヱリカ

          I refuse to believe this unless you repeat it in red.

          • lackofstyle

            It’s useless

            Knox’s 2nd:It is forbidden for supernatural agencies to be employed as a detective technique

            and seeing as i am pre-endless sorcerer battler i can’t use red, but i can say it in blue (whoo Umineko fan)

      • British_Otaku

        Cut from the 3DS version only or North America/Europe? I imagine Wonder Red is as well since I haven’t seen either of them in the Japanese version.

        They never promised the same trophies on both platforms I guess.

        • NeptuniasBeard

          Pretty sure the W101 are gonna be WiiU exclusive trophies.

          • British_Otaku

            You can’t be 100% sure till you have all of the trophies in Smash Bros 3DS (I have 230/300 so far).

            It is true that TW101 were confirmed for the Wii U version with multiple trophies though. Hope they have some of the soundtrack, an assist trophy (Prince Vorkken?) or a stage as well.

      • AuraGuyChris

        I guess her overall appearance would be too much for the rating to let it pass under the radar.

  • http://youtube.com/user/Chubunater Chubunato

    Im glad really. I didnt like using Zelda just to play with shiek anyway

    • Slayven19

      Likewise I didn’t like having no down b with zelda :).

  • Bobby Jennings

    “It’s basically due to the 3DS’ limitations,” said Sakurai, when asked why Zelda and Sheik, and Samus and Zerosuit Samus, are different characters. “It was impossible to have both characters exist together [as one] on 3DS.”

    I’m so happy he was honest. Usually the developers don’t mention the limitations of the system even though it’s obvious.

    I wonder why Saku made so many clones though? Hoping for unique DLC characters.

    • Go2hell66

      why so many clones? oh i can answer that one.

      its due to the 3DS’ limitations obviously

      • J_Joestar

        when in doubt, Blame the 3DS!

    • MagcargoMan

      He’s not honest. He said in the Smash Direct they were separate so people could focus on one moveset, and only now that the game is out he is confessing it’s because of limitations. Sakurai is a lair.

      • Bobby Jennings

        liar*

        Oh, I didn’t know that. Thanks for the info Mag.

  • Leonard Norwood Jr.

    Playing several online battles myself, I can definitely tell that even with a good netcode, players can experience problems of lagging, mostly because of a bad connection. I’ve been on the wrong end of bad connections before, the feeling you get playing the game, only to get an error message about the connection being down due to a bad connection so bad that it interrupts the entire game, also ruining for the other players also playing. Even before that point, it gets lags and controls have seconds’ delay to even get a character to do something. It is really annoying for the most part, and most of the blame goes to the person who hasn’t worked out their internet connection.
    I just hope that 3DS Smash is a lot better than Brawls’, which every person who played online, knows how bad it got if even one person gets a bad connection, even if they didn’t, didn’t change the fact that we’ve experiences a lot of control delays and lags. It was the worst online experience that most deemed to have been produced.

    Although I’m just as concerned if there’s lag in worldwide matches compared to regional, despite all players having good connection, I just hope my playthroughs online are okay from Virginia to all over the world.

    • NintendoPSXTheSecond

      That’s because the Netcode is shit. It’s all on ping and your own internet connection. Netcode would fix Internets so it can run off a central server and get everyone balanced in a way. This game doesn’t do that and it strictly relies on the hosts internet connection. Hence, shitty netcode.

    • British_Otaku

      At the least, I’ve been able to get one vs one fights with strangers with minimal gimmicks, as long as that is my primary choice, I’ll be exposed to the poor network issues less.

      In my experience, 3DS Smash has better online that Brawl, but we’ll see with the worldwide release/

  • Göran Isacson

    I think he confirmed this for some time ago? Still, it is more or less what I expected- you wouldn’t be able to bring this to both formats without making a few sacrifices along the way. It’s sad, but I think their wallets will feel they made the right choice in the end.

    • Armane

      I remember him saying that this was the reason. But it’s not like Famitsu asked him last time, or published that interview.

      Personally I’m glad. There are almost no downsides to this change.

  • Codename: D.A.V.I.D.

    Well this is a good thing to be born from the 3DS’ limitations stuff ( Unlike Ice Climbers ;_; ) , but I feel Impa should have taken the ‘Sheikah representative slot’ :P

    • Armane

      Impa (or at least the SS/OoT Impa) would just be a clone though. Why replace a fan favourite character for her?

    • J_Joestar

      well there is also Squirtle an Ivysaur who aren’t getting separate representation.

  • Quan Chi

    That’s nice. But there’s still the wiiu version. All these words that just mean lazyiness. That’s why there’s so many bugs. Nintendo shouldn’t have partnered up with anybody for the fighting game genre lacks decent coders.

  • Brimfyre

    I wonder at what point during development someone should have made the call, “hey let’s not make the same game on both systems”.

    Makes me more and more worried about the Wii U version, knowing parts are going to be gimped to accommodate a handheld device. What a backwards way to approach a game.

    • FatMasterBass

      The only thing gimped was the roster. It’s the only thing they’ve assured us will be the same on both systems.

      The Wii U version will obviously have more to offer in terms of features, modes, stages, music, etc.

      • Brimfyre

        The roster is the most important part. Imagine 20 years ago if they said Street Fighter could only have 5 characters to match the Gamboy version.

        It’s insanity.

        • J_Joestar

          yeah, but there is no need to be worried as we already know about the ‘gimped’ roster, everything else on the Wii U version should be fine.

          • James Robert Thompson

            Fine doesn’t cut it; this game needs to sell systems!

        • British_Otaku

          That is a little much, while it may be missing Wonder Red, Bayonetta, Snake and obviously some favourites from Melee and Brawl, this still has the biggest roster of any Smash Bros and all of the characters are interesting as you would expect…

          Okay I can’t really say much for Lucina even if I love the costume choices.

        • kagekiri

          Except we still have more characters than ever in a Smash, don’t we?

          Maybe we could have had even more with a Wii U only version, but it’s not really anything like only having 5 characters on the Gameboy version versus 8 on the SNES version of Street Fighter 2.

          It’s still expanded compared to previous home console editions by a decent chunk, with some pretty awesome additions to the roster to boot.

          Honestly, I don’t the roster count was the 3DS’s primary limitation, nor general variety.

          It seems more likely that the clone mechanics of having entire other character models loaded up in the 3DS memory for the previously transforming characters, or otherwise having more complicated movement AI for the Ice Climber NPC partner, were the technical limitations they were working around.

          After all, that was what they removed, and they added other mechanics to new characters that are still pretty interesting (Robin managing book/sword uses, projectile firing A attacks in Villager and Megaman, Rosalina and Luma being an even more naturally detached partner team, etc), just less resource intensive than transformations or AI partners.

          Luma and the Pikmin are dumber and much more sacrificial to boot, and mechanically, they are can be easily replaced, but if NPC Nana/Popo were in and kept dying due to AI stupidity, no one would like it.

          I doubt they were dying to put in a ton more paired characters from Nintendo history, so I’m unsure how we could have lost much besides the Ice Climbers (Baby Mario and Luigi from Mario and Luigi RPGs?). RIP Squirtle and Ivysaur, though.

          • MagcargoMan

            “Except we still have more characters than ever in a Smash, don’t we?”

            And yet we lost Ice Climbers because of it. The worst cut in the series.

        • FatMasterBass

          There’s a big difference between a game two decades ago hypothetically being cut down to 5 characters for a handheld, and a modern game being cut down to 50+, which is still the biggest roster we’ve ever seen in Smash. Yes, it sucks seeing Ice Climbers and Wolf gone, but there’s still a lot to offer.

          On top of that the comment I replied to mentioned “parts” are going to be gimped while I mentioned that the roster is the only thing we know that is negatively affected by the 3DS version. They’ve made no mention of modes, features or stages being equal.

      • Adrian Duran

        Assist trophies are also the same IIRC

  • Prinnydoom

    You know if you think about it…..technically since Zero suit Samus is out of her armour the armour is moving on its own without anyone in it. And I am an idiot.

    • doubleO7

      You’re over-thinking it. By that logic, Zelda must have cloned herself and had her clone dress up a Sheik. That just sounds really silly. There’s no use trying to apply logic to a crossover fighting game without a story.

      • Prinnydoom

        Yeah don’t know what I was thinking there.

      • Adorabunny

        To be fair, TP Zelda COULDN’T be the same person as Sheik because I never remember TP Zelda transforming into some guitar-playing ninja.

        • doubleO7

          Harp-playing Ninja?

          While true that Zelda doesn’t transform in TP, she was originally planned to. Sheik’s design in both Brawl and Smash 4 was based on unused concept art from TP, so they have pretty accurately depicted what Zelda would’ve looked like had she donned her Sheik disguise in TP.

      • MaskedHeroxx

        Well mario has cloned himself…well that’s pretty logically sence he’s a doctor :-P

    • Dascylus

      Or you could just think of them as toys being forced to fight each other by a pair of evil hands… Like a kid playing with his action figures, then again, this was the main premise of Smash Bros anyway.

  • MaskedHeroxx

    Shitty ass 3ds those characters slots could hav been for someone else…3ds whoa idea was that

  • AuraGuyChris

    Geez. It’s like the 3DS’s existence is crippling characters and aspects of the game. It took my ICs away…

  • Andrew Bland

    I understand that the 3DS has its limits, but don’t gimp the Wii U version because of it. It’s okay if the Wii U has more characters and extras than the 3DS. Actually, it’s kinda expected that the console version of a game would have more content than a handheld.

  • Andrew Bland

    Just reading this makes me what else he had to cut. Olimar with only 3 pikmin, no squirtle or Ivysaur, Dedede only throwing Gordos, etc. *Sigh*, I knew the 3DS version was a bad idea from the start. :/

    • British_Otaku

      Only throwing Gordos didn’t seem like a “limitation” to me. I suppose calculating a whole unique entity that can wonder around could be trouble, but it removed the random factor in DeDeDe and if you look at most of the game’s design (Multi Man Melee doesn’t spawn items randomly but on a platform which scrolls, a version of each stage which is flat like Final Destination, no tripping).

      Olimar having 3 Pikmin seemed like an okay choice because his recovery is supported by flying Pikmin and it makes it easier to follow which one you are using (a strength for you and your enemies).

    • http://twitch.tv/Mogarane Mogarane

      How does game balance have any thing to do with the 3ds version?

  • Hunts Rattata

    You’d think they were made separate characters because it’s a just good idea.

    • British_Otaku

      Yeah, fortunately limitations led to a sensible decision for once.

      • lackofstyle

        well they say “Necessity is the mother of invention”

      • MagcargoMan

        No it didn’t.

    • subsamuel01

      That would have meant they would have to put more effort in developing separate characters and movesets. I think they went this route because they wanted to get the game out as soon as possible.

      • British_Otaku

        Zelda and Sheik do have changed up movesets you know? Sheik is a completely different beast with two new B moves while Zelda gets a new B move as well.

        Ganondorf is the same as Brawl… >_> But they clearly worked in a lot of other areas even for this version.

    • MagcargoMan

      Which it isn’t.

      • Slayven19

        Actually it was a great idea, the majority of people approve of the split.

        • MagcargoMan

          And yet people kept transformation characters in their fan rosters. Face it, they’re just sucking up to Sakurai and every decision he makes. Before he cut Pokemon Trainer everyone had their own kind of Trainer in the rosters, whether it be the original from Brawl or a new one, and then magically when he’s confirmed to be cut everyone’s suddenly “I never cared about Trainer”.

          And no it wasn’t a great idea, he’s homogenising characters by taking away what makes them unique. What’s next, Ice Climbers being turned into Popo by himself?

  • SetzerGabbiani

    The 3DS version was a pure business decision made way back in 2011, and it has paid off for Nintendo. Overall, we as fans should be more focused on Nintendo’s health as a business than the fate of the Smash Bros. franchise (which is clearly quite healthy). Yes, we are disappointed with how the 3DS version has handicapped the Wii U version as far as characters are concerned, but has anyone even considered that the roster might be updated for both after the arrival of the NN3DS? They had DLC for Mario Tennis and Mario Kart 8, so I’m going to take a wait-and-see approach here. Some of you might say “I don’t want to purchase a new system blah blah”, but I’m willing to bet when a character patch is introduced (along with the improved lineup and maybe even Gamecube VC games), those feelings will diminish greatly.

    • Jero

      Everyone is saying that but how would it work for online play, you won’t be able to use the new characters online or would the system automatically pair you with other n3ds users.

      • SetzerGabbiani

        That’s a fair point, but I’m sure they would black out unusable characters on the regular 3DS. As misguided as they can be, Nintendo knows how to work around things like this. They will probably try to sell New 3DS through that limitation…lemons/lemonade.

    • subsamuel01

      I’m probably not going to buy the 3DS version until the New 3DS comes out, rather wait and play the Wii U version in HD first.

  • Jero

    I’m OK with this tho. It was a small price to pay for having a great game on the handled. And yeah, I’m a bit sad about characters being cut but I’ve been having so much fun with the demo that is already worth it.

  • MagcargoMan

    Sakurai is a liar. He outright said he did it for balance reasons in the Smash Direct, and now my fears have been confirmed. I knew the 3DS was responsible for this. How much do you wanna bet that Olimar only having three pikmin was the 3DS’ fault as well? And because of this my main Pokemon Trainer got cut.

    Thanks, Sakurai.

    • Andrew Bland

      Agreed, he gimped Olimar so hard. And out of all of Pokemon trainers pokemon, he probably chose Charizard because of fanboys. Im really hoping Ivysaur and Squirtle return. Charizard was my least favorite of the 3.

      • Hero_ZaFakeo

        Gimped Olimar? Have you seen what that man’s white Pikimin can do? Or his custom moves?

        • https://twitter.com/LLCoolOyd Lloyd

          Do pay him any attention, man. He just wants to complain even though he hasn’t seen what Olimar can do in this game now.

  • Adrian Duran

    Maybe it is because Zelda is TP and Shiek is OoT

    Same reason why we have 2 Links, though they aren’t the same

    • MagcargoMan

      Except Sheik’s design in this is based of her concept art for Twilight Princess.

      And Zelda could turn into Sheik in Brawl, so nope.

    • 하세요

      Orrrrrrr Smash isn’t canon so that’s irrelevant even if it were the case. As said below, Sheik is based off of TP concept art. This is not OoT Sheik.

  • British_Otaku

    I think Zelda/Sheik and Zero Suit Samus/Samus benefitted hugely from this change, they have more distinct movesets and there wasn’t much use or reason to change at least when you compare it to other characters with more prompt style changing like Shulk.

    Charizard also has a more interesting moveset and is fortunately not limited by the stats adjustment based on switching even if Pokemon Trainer was a nice premise and I miss the other two Pokemon.

    Ice Climbers… I want em back.

    • MagcargoMan

      Samus’s moveset is pretty much the same. And Zero Suit Samus’ drastic moveset changes are completely independent from whether she could transform or not (except for her Final Smash).

      • British_Otaku

        Correct, but the final smash is still a factor as in an ongoing match where someone is more capable with one of the Samus characters or has a better use for one of them, the final smash would feel like a waste.

        You will be getting a long term disadvantage which is out of your control. Awfully specific? Yes, but that is a weakness due to designing the two to be paired together.

        • MagcargoMan

          That wasn’t my point. You implied they had more distinct movesets, but Sakurai would have given ZSS the jet boots regardless of whether she could transform or not

          Regardless, there is easily a way to keep transformations as an option and not force people to swap out with their Final Smash.

          • British_Otaku

            The primary point was focusing on Zelda and Sheik and I mentioned Samus/Zero Suit as an afterthought given that they were vaguely similar case and didn’t mesh with the other characters (PT) I was talking about where I definitely saw a cause for concern at lost potential over the change.

            Your understanding of my post was logical, but that line in my post wasn’t all the way logical. I readjusted my point as I remembered that “Wait, this Magcargoman is right, but isn’t there still no strong benefit to the change if it isn’t a quick one which is convincing – especially if it is tied to a rare event like Final Smashes?”

            They could have designed a way to make ZSS not stick to being Samus forever (see Warioman), but to be honest I can’t come up with something that works better than her using her gunship instead. She has access to it regardless in canon, but it seems more sensible for her to use the best tools available at the time rather than have a temporary Samus Super mode.

          • MagcargoMan

            I don’t think you think you get what I mean. It wouldn’t be a super-mode or temporary transformation, and you don’t have to ditch the gunship. Here, I’ll explain my idea:

            When Samus used Zero Laser, instead of her armour breaking, her suit looks overheated for a few seconds. She can still move and attack normally during this time, but after a few seconds her suit can’t stand it anymore and breaks, turning her into Zero Suit Samus. But, if you press B during the overheated phase, she vents the energy from her arm canon (not an attack just an animation) which stops her from becoming ZSS.

            Now for Zero Suit Samus, she can still have the Gunship final smash, but in the last few seconds of it her ship screen could start flashing red. If you press B during this time, an image of the Power Suit appears on the ship’s screen, and you will be regular Samus when the Final Smash ends instead of Zero Suit Samus. Don’t press B if you want to remain as ZSS. Also, you could choose which one you start as, like you could with Zelda/Sheik in Brawl.

            This way, transformations stay, but people who don’t like them can stay the same character. Everybody wins.

          • British_Otaku

            A fairly simple but resourceful method to maintain both, nicely done and nicely put even if I don’t see any real strength in transformation which aren’t easily reversible, ones that you can avoided at will isn’t offensive to my tastes.

  • subsamuel01

    If the Wii U version is coming out later, wouldn’t it be smart to just improve the Wii U version over the 3DS instead of limiting both versions. The Wii U needs smash bros. to sell more than the 3DS does.

    • 하세요

      That’s a kick in the nads for those that can only afford one. By giving one more content, the other one will seem “watered down” and those that purchase it will feel jipped, especially since they announced already that both would overall be the same except some minor game modes and stages.

      For such a major series like this, you want both sides to feel they got their value, not “I know more people have 3DSs, but fuck you guys, get a Wii-U.”

      • Alter

        That’s what Nintendo intention all along (to buy both version).

        • 하세요

          Yes, but for those that cannot do so still won’t feel like they were scrapped out of content as the meat of the game (Roster) is the exact same.

          Imagine if something like BlazBlue had a PS4 and a Vita version, then the PS4 version had 3~5 more characters than the Vita because it could handle more characters. Vita people would be pissed, ya?

          • Alter

            Because there’s no such a thing, 3~5 more characters means more space taken in storage, not in RAM. Loaded stage and character models in RAM should be proportional between PS4 and PSVita depends on resolution (polycount and texture) and framerate (animation).

          • 하세요

            Missing the point. People are shunned away from handheld versions of games because in many cases, they have less content. Games like BB do fine on Vita still because it’s the exact same game, just shrunken.

      • MagcargoMan

        It’s pretty clear that Smash is already being watered down with Ice Climbers and Transformations being cut because the 3DS can’t handle it.

        The people getting kicked in the nads here are the Smash Wii U fans. And quite frankly, they should just make say “Buy a Wii U for Smash”. Making the 3DS version was a dumb move because the already struggling Wii U is gonna lose even more possible sales now that people can easily get the biggest system seller it has on 3DS instead.

        • 하세요

          Why yes, it is clear that it was watered down. But to do it in a way that profits are still maximized, you have to remove it from both.

          Pretty sure the profits from selling a 3DS version far outweigh the profits from solely having a Wii-U version, especially in Japan where home consoles just cannot top handhelds. Newsflash, this is still a Japanese company. You have to look at things from all perspectives, not just “save the Wii-U!!”

          • MagcargoMan

            If Nintendo’s execs are scratching their heads wondering why the Wii U’s not selling, I’m sure they’re not thinking “Wii U’s not selling but that doesn’t matter at all because 3DS still sells, right guys?”

            I’m pretty sure they do care. Considering how they’ve made many statements about it, and how the Wii U not selling caused them to do that “Quality of Life”, it clearly matters. No matter how much money the 3DS makes it’s not gonna make up for all the money spent developing another console people aren’t buying.

    • XaviIniesta

      They’re supposed to have the same charcters and moves, just different stages.
      If they disregarded the 3DS version, then the Wii U version could also get Ice Climbers, since the reason they were omitted was due to hardware limitations of the 3DS.

  • Ty Austin

    As someone who mains Zelda/plays ZZS, and doesn’t care for Sheik/Samus, I welcome the change. In Melee, Sheik was so good it rendered Zelda obsolete and ZSS kinda felt like an after thought since you had to rely on unconventional means to play as her.

    • MagcargoMan

      Zelda being bad is independent from her being a transformation character. This is not a good thing, it’s watering down the uniqueness of characters. He might as well have kept the Ice Climbers but made it Popo by himself if we wants to keep going this direction.

      • raygunner659

        So you’re watering down the uniqueness of characters by changing one character into two, giving one of them (Sheik) an offensive/movement option and the other (Zelda) an offensive/defensive option (both of which benefit their styles), and then adding in a ton of newcomers who play almost nothing like any other character has before, like Villager, or Megaman, etc.

        Okay that sounded really aggressive, but it was what I was thinking >_>

        • MagcargoMan

          It is, smart alec. Now they’re just “another character who fights with no particular gimmick that now makes them in the league of plain characters like Mario or Fox”. And no, Phantom Slash does not suit Zelda, it clashes with the rest of her specials. Should have been a Final Smash where the Phantom can move around and attack fighters while Zelda does whatever instead of making them share the same Final Smash.

          Adding newcomers is completely unrelated when the topic is about changes to veterans. Try again.

          • raygunner659

            No need to be so mean about it. I get that Phantom Slash doesn’t look like the best move but it must still have a defensive property in its physicality that Zelda’s other specials don’t have. I’m sure someone could use it well. My point was that losing one gimmick isn’t the end of all uniqueness. What the game lost in that gimmick is being made up in the unique style each character is getting. There’s no way all the characters play the same and saying they’re all plain isn’t really fair. I feel like the balancing of the game might have affected some of this, and that would have been inevitable. If they were to treat Zelda and Sheik as a single entity when balancing regardless of system limitations, that would most likely mean both would get nerfed so they would depend on the other more as an integral part of their operation. And that’s not gonna sit well with another group of people. I understand that this isn’t gonna please you at all, but they can’t make everyone happy and we have to realize things aren’t gonna go our way all the time. Anyway, sorry if I was too aggressive with the first response, and sorry, but I’m not sure we could reach an agreement.

          • MagcargoMan

            No need to be mean? Yet your first response to my first post was clearly passive-aggressive. Only returning the favour. If you didn’t intend to be that way, then I’m sorry, but that’s how I felt it was.

            Zelda being bad in past Smash games doesn’t have anything to do with being a transforming character. If Zelda and Sheik were separate in past games, Sheik would still be the stronger fighter. I don’t get this argument. Meta Knight overshadows most of Brawl’s characters, but picking him over another character doesn’t make the other pointless. Why do two characters who can swap out have to have weaknesses that the other doesn’t? Why can’t they just be balanced the same way other characters?

            The thing is, this was a change that could have been easily avoided if it wasn’t for the stupid 3DS version. The more and more things get cut because of this the more I start to feel portable Smash Bros is not a good trade-off. Sakurai just has a complete disregard for people in his push for this downgraded 3DS Smash. “What’s that, you like Pokemon Trainer and the Ice Climbers? Well I want the Wii U version’s roster to be held back by the 3DS, so too bad.”

          • raygunner659

            Again, I’m really, really sorry about the aggressiveness, but it’s out there now, deleting it isn’t gonna erase the fact that I said it and I’m just gonna have to live with it. I was just hoping you could break that cycle but I realize that’s also presumptuous of me. I’m very sorry I offended you.

            As for the transformation balancing issue, in my opinion, the thing is that if they could still transform and were both balanced without giving them some sort of downside the other one could cover or turn around, then the transformation gimmick itself largely becomes useless or else unbalances the characters. Meta Knight doesn’t invalidate other characters in Brawl (I know some people do think so though), but he most often possesses the advantage. Having both characters balanced on both sides of the transformation means you can now either pick and choose a style in-game that’ll directly counter your opponent and not have to worry about playing with an ‘incomplete’ character, giving you an advantage in options over your opponent. Every character has to have inherent weaknesses, but by making both sides of the transformation just as viable as any other characters means you have two characters to choose from, with very different styles. They wouldn’t be covering each other’s weaknesses, one could just stay on the field all game to abuse their strengths. Then we’d have the same problem before where nobody switches anyway, except when they need an advantage. Or they still become the plain type of fighters you were talking about, because to balance both characters without having their unique styles give them strengths and weaknesses that can then be switched to directly counter an opponent, would mean to make them both similar to one another if not in style, then in options.

            Short version, you end up with two balanced characters who, by virtue of switching and their own unique styles, always have an advantage (or are without disadvantage) because they can tag out to the better option if the matchup was bad, or you have two balanced characters who don’t offer advantages or weaknesses the other doesn’t have, essentially making them both the same.

            Example (both balanced, both unique); King Dedede has strengths that play to Sheik’s weaknesses, but Zelda has better options. Sheik switches to Zelda; King Dedede will always at a disadvantage to Zelda/Sheik. Mario has strengths that play to Zelda’s weaknesses, but Sheik has better options; Mario will never have an advantage against Zelda/Sheik.

            Example (both balanced, not as unique); King Dedede has strengths that play to Sheik’s weaknesses; because Sheik and Zelda are balanced into one character, changing to Zelda changes your style slightly but not enough to drastically change the match-up. Sheik and Zelda are pretty much the same and one can function without the other.

            Either you have Zelda/Sheik as two different characters in one, or Zelda/Sheik as one and largely the same. I personally don’t see a third option to have both sides of the transformation be balanced and still have the characters as a whole be balanced. Perhaps suggesting that there’s a way to balance them into one character while keeping a balanced range of good and bad match-ups between the two; but it would be insanely difficult to make them neutrally balanced against many other characters in the roster. It would’ve posed a huge issue for the dev team, or they’d have to abandon balance.

            I apologize again if I offended you. I think I understand your arguments but tell me if I interpreted anything the wrong way. It sucks that you’re not gonna enjoy Smash 4 as much, but I do hope you don’t linger to much on it. Just enjoy what you’re getting! I’m sure it’s still gonna be a blast.

          • MagcargoMan

            Okay. I’m sorry too. I just don’t handle it well when people tell me it’s good I lost things I liked. You can’t imagine how many people told me it was a good thing Pokemon Trainer was gone when I lamented his loss back when Charizard was confirmed to be standalone, or how it was a “good thing” about no more story mode. Okay, cycle of anger broken. Cool now. :)

            I wouldn’t say having both be balanced makes the transformation useless. It’s like how in some fighting games, certain characters have a stance system that changes their moveset. The point is it changes your fighting style, and I always found that cool. It’s kinda like a tag-team system where you switch out who you play as.

            As for having no disadvantages to other characters, this wouldn’t be a problem if Smash had better balancing. I know you can’t achieve perfect balance, but it will be another seven or eight years before the next Smash Bros, so there’s plenty of time for balance patches each time the tier list is revised, so Sakurai can see which characters are too weak or two strong and buff/nerf them.

            What I mean by “plain fighter” is a character with no gimmick. And don’t get me wrong, there’s plenty of gimmickless characters I love to use (Ike, Game & Watch, Toon Link), it’s just that to me it just feels like losing the Zelda/Sheik transforming mechanic is like losing Ice Climber’s duo mechanic or Olimar’s Pikmin mechanic; losing a special feature unique to that character.

            I will enjoy Smash 4 as long as the gameplay is good, which has been true for the last three games and so should be the same for this one. I loved Brawl more than Melee, and I loved Melee more than Smash 64, so I most likely will love this one more than Brawl. I just can’t help but feel it could have been even greater without the 3DS version. And again, I’m sorry for being hostile.

          • raygunner659

            I firmly believe transformation can be something that can be balanced in the end, and what you suggested about time is probably something they’ll need. Personally I still have to admit I like the split. It might just be acceptance, because we can’t change the fact that this is happening. However, I would love to see the transformation return someday, though that might largely depend on the reception to Sheik’s separation this time, which seems to be positive (or Sakurai’s whim, so we can still hope). Maybe a newcomer somewhere down the line.

            Thanks for the accepting my apology. I usually delete anything cynical or sarcastic I type but it just sort of slipped out yesterday. I don’t think you need to apologize, I definitely started it >_>

            Also whoever told you “no story mode” was a good thing is wrong. Story Mode was fun and beautiful. Taking it out was heart-wrenching

            EDIT: Also, cutting Ivysaur out makes me immensely sad. He was my favourite of the three. And he’ll probably never return either, unless as Pokemon Trainer.

          • MagcargoMan

            I don’t think it will come back now. Sakurai said he likes the change. Trainer won’t come back, and that makes me sad.

            Yeah, a bunch of people were going around saying how Subspace had problems and people just have this defeatist attitude nowadays where they’re like “It was bad once, so never again” rather than trying to improve on the concept.

            Agreed, Ivysaur was fun. Charizard was easily the least fun of the three for me, but of course all the genwunners flocked to him and claim the other two are pointless (even though Squirtle is one of the original starters for crying out loud).

            Okay, glad things are sorted out. Nice chatting with you.

      • Ty Austin

        To each their own. To me, I watch people pick Zelda only to immediately turn into Sheik, Zelda never to be seen again.

        Playing as Zelda, I’m basically playing a character that has one less move than the rest of the cast because I have absolutely no interest in playing as Sheik, at all.

        • MagcargoMan

          One less move. ONE. How horrible…

          • Ty Austin

            When everyone only has 4 special moves, yeah, it has a little more impact.

          • MagcargoMan

            Sheik is top tier in Melee, so bull.

  • Hero_ZaFakeo

    Y’know, I bet if the Ice Climbers stayed we wouldn’t have the hail of salt cubes we’re all having now. Smash 3DS seems pretty great in almost all aspects of its gameplay. The stages count isn’t equivocal, and since Sakurai’s team works on the games right up until release I’m sure there will be more stages to go on because he said they wouldn’t be all equivocal. Heck, he even said the 3DS version was meant for more single player play focused modes and the Wii U version had more multiplayer focused modes. I’m sure everything is going to be fine, though Smash probably should have been made for the New 3DS rather than the regular one.

    • MagcargoMan

      “Y’know, I bet if the Ice Climbers stayed we wouldn’t have the hail of salt cubes we’re all having now.”

      People like you are so obnoxious. Can’t help but go around and go “lol salt” whenever people are genuinely disappointed about something.

      • Hero_ZaFakeo

        Hey man, I raged about Mewtwo too. It’s not like there wasn’t a disappointment for me throughout Smash. Especially with Charizard surviving and Greninja’s trailer looking like a classic Sakurai troll. But people are acting like they’re about to grab pitchforks or something over this and I found it stupid. And for the record, I say salt to describe any fighting game related rage or the like, including my own. I happen to be a fighting game fan that just lets it spill into my lingo.

        • MagcargoMan

          Well okay then. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

          Regardless, 3DS cutting a character they got up and running on Wii U just because Sakurai doesn’t want exclusive characters sucks big time. It’s clear at this point that the 3DS version is just holding the Wii U version back.

          • Hero_ZaFakeo

            Which is why like I was saying they shoulda made it for the new 3DS to make it so none one would be cut. At least Wolf and Lucas survive in Fox’s and Ness’ custom moves.

            And thanks for the apology.

          • Ben Sylvia

            It seems more that IC weren’t in because spending the time to get them working on 3DS would take time away from other characters, which might have caused more cuts than there already were.

            And if that’s the main reason why, they could be DLC post release. Since they wouldn’t have a release date to meet for them to be fixed.

            I’m honestly not that upset over them or most of the other cuts (I miss Wolf) because of a certain newcomer and his 7 alts being freaking awesome.

    • Ben Sylvia

      The sad part is people complaining about the roster, which consists of 48 unique movesets (and 58 unique characters), just because 3-6 characters got cut (depends on which certain people care about being cut)

      You have FIFTY-EIGHT (59 if you count Mario’s Dr. costume) PLAYABLE CHARACTERS. How can you be perpetually upset about that?? And with assets in the game to accommodate DLC, that number will likely increase!

      Some people can be so petty.

      • Aidan Gamble

        There are only 51 characters total in Smash 4.

        Also, Dr. Mario isn’t a costume, he’s a separate character.

        • Ben Sylvia

          Characters. As in “unique individuals”. As I said, there are 48 unique movesets. Lucina, Dr. Mario, and Dark Pit don’t have enough differences from Marth, Mario, and Pit to really say they’re moveset is “unique”. 1 or 2 different attacks while every other attack is the same doesn’t make you “unique” Toon Link would fall in the same boat if not for most of his aerials being different to accommodate his small legs, plus the very different physics to his specials.

          58 unique characters was wrong, there are really 57. Both Samuses are the same individual, and I also included the Koopalings and Alph. Who, and this might surprise you, are playable as alt costumes. While at the same time being a different character than their base. And also get their own character name, announcer calls them specifically, and crowd chants. So they’re truly “playable characters”. Not “unique movesets”. The criteria is different. Plus, since they’re separate now, Sheik can be considered OoT’s Zelda, given a redesign to fit with the other Zelda characters that aren’t Toon Link. Cause facts are facts, Sheik was never in TP. Only reason she got a TP design was to fit with Zelda’s TP design.

          Dr. Mario doesn’t count as a “unique character”. He is just Mario in a lab coat, which for some idiotic reason got it’s own character select screen spot. He doesn’t even count as a unique moveset, which I previously mentioned. Why Sakurai didn’t leave Dr. as a Mario alt as originally planned, and replace one of his Neutral and Down specials with Pills and Mario Tornado, is beyond me. At least Toon Link and Dark Pit are separate individuals to who they share a moveset with, and both versions of Samus have completely different movesets, so Mario having a second spot on the roster, said second spot being mostly the same, with just a different outfit, is really a waste in my opinion.

          • Aidan Gamble

            Why the fuck are you counting the Koopalings and Alph as separate playable characters, but not Dr. Mario/Dark Pit/Lucina?

            That makes absolutely no goddamn sense.

            Also, don’t assume you know more about Smash than me just because you have a nontraditional view of what constitutes a ‘character’. I can guarantee you don’t.

          • Ben Sylvia

            I’m only not counting Dr. Mario as a “separate character”

            I said those three weren’t really “separate movesets” due to being vastly the same. Dark Pit and Lucina are obviously different characters than who they’re a clone of. Dr. Mario sure ain’t.

            The Koopalings and Alph are different characters than who they’re costumes of. All 7 koopalings with their own spots on the roster would make more freaking sense than Dr. Mario.

            As I’ve said, there 57 unique individuals playable in Smash, since Samus and Mario are in there twice, albeit Samus having 2 completely different movesets.

        • Ben Sylvia

          Dr. Mario is the very definition of an alt costume, as he’s just Mario in a lab coat.

          Why they had the “brilliant” idea to give him his own roster spot, with only like 2 easily noticeable differences (moveset wise), is beyond me.

          The Koopalings and Alph are unique characters. Even though they’re included as alts for Bowser Jr. and Olimar, they get their own name tag on the bottom screen, and the announcer refers to them specifically. And the Koopalings each have their own voices. Certainly more unique than Dr. Mario.

          They just really should have left Dr as an alt (since he probably was to begin with, before getting “upgraded” like Lucina) and given the pills and tornado to Mario as custom moves. Maybe change his down aerial back to his old one so it wouldn’t be redundant. Even if that takes one “character” off the select screen, or they could have “upgraded” Alph instead.

      • MagcargoMan

        “Some people can be so petty”

        Like the apologists to who suck up to Sakurai and every decision he makes?

        • Ben Sylvia

          i don’t suck up to every decision he makes.

          He changed Wario’s side smash, from his charge attack in the Wario Land games, to a generic punch.
          And they also continue to use the N64 Great Fox on Corneria, despite having the better looking 3DS Star Fox model for it.

          I have my gripes with the game, but the positives out weigh the negative for me. Like how lolawesome ROB’s FS is now.

          • MagcargoMan

            So you have the nerve to call others petty when your gripes are stuff like “The Great Fox doesn’t look like this design”?

          • Ben Sylvia

            I don’t let it ruin the whole experience for myself. It’s just a slight irritation considering the updated model is in the game as a trophy, but they still use the old one. Raging about it on the internet and saying it ruins the entire game and Sakurai should be replaced for the next Smash isn’t going to change it or improve my experience.

          • MagcargoMan

            Sakurai should be replaced. Smash needs new blood, and although he made great leaps with each game, it’s clear with this one he’s taken steps back (Melee-style clones being added again instead of Brawl-style semi-clones, some characters getting old stages instead of new stages like other franchises, cutting characters that were actually up and running in the Wii U version simply because of the 3DS version) and shown extremely unprofessional bias by focusing on one game he made, Kid Icarus Uprising, a three game series getting more characters, items and enemies while more popular franchises got next to nothing.

            He also directly lied to people in the Smash Direct, outright saying he cut transformations so people could focus on one character, and then right here when the game is out confesses it was actually because of the 3DS. Never, ever lie when selling your product.

          • Ben Sylvia

            I honestly don’t miss transformations, as they were rather crappy anyway aside from Sheik.

            The first way being, while this was in Brawl and might have been better on Wii U due to more power, them taking several seconds sometimes to actually transform.
            The other being trying to get every Classic and All-Star trophy. Since you had to actually be currently using whichever form when you finish to get the trophy. And while for Zelda and PKMN Trainer it wasn’t so bad since you could change when you wanted, you had to either put in the secret button input on the CSS or get a Smash ball once as Samus to get Zero Suit’s trophy. And I disliked PKMN trainer on principal they didn’t call him Red. Which going by the trophy they still wouldn’t have in this one, so good riddance.

            Mario STILL has more content than several of the original series combined. Pokemon too probably. But no one ever complains about that because it’s Mario and he could have half the roster devoted to his series for all anyone cares, but God forbid a series that got a new game, which introduced a lot of new content to it’s series gets more than some collectable trophies. Or God forbid Sakurai puts in anything from games he worked on. What other popular franchise? True, Zelda should have gotten a new character, but Metroid was realistically never getting one this game. Other M effectively killed any chance for non Other M content in Smash until a new Metroid game comes out. And we’ll leave the Metroid characters at that, not going into why or why not Ridley should be in. DK and Yoshi are really just part of the extended Mario franchise, even if DK isn’t counted as closely as Yoshi is, so it’s not surprise neither got a new character when Mario got 2 new characters, “Alt Costume” Mario brought back, and 7 additional characters in the form of Bowser Jr’s Koopaling alts. Either of the potential Kirby newcomers would have gotten just as many complaints as Dark Pit. Star Fox it isn’t surprising, since the series was rather dead in the water for the last few years, and there’s a good chance no one knew when they started making Smash4 that a new game was in the works. Wolf being cut is a shame though.

            And while KI did get a lot of items we really didn’t need, I’m glad for the enemies, cause remember, they ported them directly from Uprising, so I assume that if they made them from scratch, it would have either decreased the overall number of enemies in Smash Run, making it where you get the same enemies more often. And before you mention it, Smash Run IS my favorite mode. Palutena was fairly commonly requested for the game before her reveal, Dark Pit is the main point people complain about. But he got the same upgrade as Lucina and “Alt Costume” Mario, as they were all going to be Alph/Koopaling style alts for the characters, and got upgraded in the spare time at the end. I’m sure the only other character that might have been upgraded instead is Alph, unless you really want all 7 Koopalings to have their own roster spot. And even if Dark Pit WASN’T upgraded to full character, HE’D STILL BE PLAYABLE, there’d still be 3 playable Kid Icarus characters, just like there’s FOURTEEN Mario characters that can be played as. On the same subject, why do people only complain about Lucina and Dark Pit? Why not complain about “Alt Costume Mario”? He’s the most obnoxious of all the clones because he’s not even a new character, he’s the very freaking definition of “Alternate Costume” but got put on the roster, twice I might remind you, but everybody overlooks him just because, “oh it’s Mario, he can get however many lazy clones can be squeezed on the game, but heaven help Sakurai if he gives any other series a lazy clone.” Sure there are some people who complain about Dr., but it sure isn’t anywhere near the number who bash on Lucina and Dark Pit, despite actually being new characters to the series. And I will stretch that for Dark Pit, since he is at the very base Pit with black clothes and wings, but the fact still exists that he’s a separate character.

            I’m actually relieved Metroid didn’t get any new character, because they would likely have been from that abomination Other M. The fact they made Dark Samus an assist, despite being perfectly capable of passing as a Samus clone, either a Lucas style clone or an Alt Costume Mario style one, if not having a mostly unique moveset aside from some similar speicals, shows they didn’t give a shit about anything Metroid that wasn’t in Other M. Hell, the only Metroid trophies in the 3DS version, which was said to have primarily Handheld Game trophies, that aren’t entities used in the game are from Other M. Despite THREE handheld games, all they could be bothered to include is another Other M Varia suit trophy, and the crap Gravity “function” from Other M. The only thing that really amazes me is they didn’t just port Pyroshpere to 3DS, instead of actually re-using an old Metroid stage with no relation to Other M.

            The stages are the main thing I will agree on. But lets look at them. As I said, they obviously didn’t care to include anything in either version of the game that wasn’t from Other M, so I doubt they ever considered to include a Metroid stage from one of the handheld games, instead taking the half-assed route of bringing back Brinstar since it’s “technically” in Zero Mission. Same with Donkey Kong, the original Country games all got remade on GB, so they skimped out on making a new stage. And again with Star Fox. I’m honestly surprised we didn’t get Big Blue for the F-Zero stage, even if what we got is just a retro version of Melee’s Mute City more or less. And the fact that they made a new Mother/Earthbound stage instead of just using Onett again is mind boggling. Wario Ware is just disappointing. Cause lets face it, it best represents the older WarioWare games, and they obviously don’t care about the Wario Land series the same way they don’t care about pre-Other M Metroid. And since it seems they’re starting to count Yoshi’s Island along with Mario now, of course Yoshi wasn’t gonna get a new stage, they already made 4 new Mario stages, why make a 5th one? Oh right, that would also put Mario at FIFTEEN TOTAL CHARACTERS IN THE GAME that can be played as. But Kid Icarus having 3 characters is tantamount to murder.

            I apologize if that all comes off as inane rambling. But I’m honestly sick of everyone crapping on Kid Icarus despite Mario and Pokemon consisting of more content than a number of other popular series combined.

          • MagcargoMan

            “I honestly don’t miss transformations” – So it doesn’t matter that he lied about simply because you personally don’t care about them? Classy.

            “And I disliked PKMN trainer on principal they didn’t call him Red. Which going by the trophy they still wouldn’t have in this one, so good riddance” – The hypocrisy here is astounding. You go around calling people “so petty”, yet you hate a character for THEIR NAME of all reasons.

            “Mario STILL has more content than several of the original series combined. Pokemon too probably. But no one ever complains about that because it’s Mario” – Or you know, because their Nintendo’s biggest franchises and because probably the best way to gauge how many characters a series gets is based on how many games it has? I’m not even counting spin-offs or ports, on platformers alone there are 18 Mario games, that’s certainly enough to warrant 5 or 6 characters (Dr Mario was overkill though, he should have never returned). Honestly you should know better.

            “Or God forbid Sakurai puts in anything from games he worked on. ” – There’s a difference between putting in stuff from a game he’s made and showing abosulute bias. He doesn’t overrep Kirby roster-wise. Hell, it was underrepped in Melee where it could have had Dedede. It was underepped stage-wise in Brawl. And in Smash Run it doesn’t have an absurd ammount of enemies comapred to franchises bigger than it except for Pokemon (but that’s most likely unrelated). The only Kirby favouritism there is would be the Kirby characters stealing the spotlight in Subspace Emmisary in Brawl.

            Meanwhile, Kid Icarus has three characters. Two is fine. After the big comeback it definitely deserved a second rep. But not a third. Not when it only has three games. It has six items (keep in mind Kirby didn’t even get five items until Brawl, so he clearly didn’t rush to put them in). And it has eighteen Smash Run enemies. EIGHTEEN. To put this in perspective, adding up all the Zelda and Kirby enemies only nets you seventeen. Heck, Kid Icarus has more enemies in Smash Run than Nintendo’s flagship franchise. You can’t deny that there’s clearly no bias for Uprising.

            “Other M effectively killed any chance for non Other M content in Smash until a new Metroid game comes out.” – Mother Brain and Dark Samus assist trophies.

            “DK and Yoshi are really just part of the extended Mario franchise, even if DK isn’t counted as closely as Yoshi is” – Counting DK as part of the Mario-series is just wrong. They both debuted in Donkey Kong (if anything Mario’s the DK spinoff), and then DK broke of from Mario as early as the SNES, only appearing in Mario Kart/Mario sports titles to acknowledge their shared origin. You’d seriously consider K Rool a “Mario character” when he appears in only ONE Mario game (Mario Super Sluggers) as roster fodder? Treating the Donkey Kong Country games as part of the Mario series is just insulting. And how the heck does it NOT deserve a newcomer? If Kid Icarus can get two for having one big new game after the series got revived, then Donkey Kong definitely deserves at least one since he had TWO big games after his series got revived.

            “I’m glad for the enemies, cause remember, they ported them directly from Uprising, so I assume that if they made them from scratch, it would have either decreased the overall number of enemies in Smash Run” – And yet, he could have imported enemies from other 3DS games and yet didn’t. He wouldn’t have put that many from Uprising if he didn’t make it, regardless of model importing. And honestly a slightly small enemy count would actually be a fair trade-off because almost all of the KI enemies in Smash Run are either annoying to fight or extremely overpowered. The only one of them that doesn’t fall in either category is Monoeyes.

            “But he got the same upgrade as Lucina and “Alt Costume” Mario, as they were all going to be Alph/Koopaling style alts for the characters, and got upgraded in the spare time at the end. ” – Proof? I’ve only heard Sakurai said Lucina was planned to be an alt.

            “And even if Dark Pit WASN’T upgraded to full character, HE’D STILL BE PLAYABLE, there’d still be 3 playable Kid Icarus characters, just like there’s FOURTEEN Mario characters that can be played as. ” – Nope, alt costumes. Otherwise Male Wii Fit Trainer would count as a second Wii Fit rep. And I’m not happy about the Koopaling alts either. Time should have went to giving some of the other characters alts.

            ” Same with Donkey Kong, the original Country games all got remade on GB, so they skimped out on making a new stage. And again with Star Fox.” – If Zelda can get an Ocarina of Time stage on 3DS because of the 3DS port, then Star Fox and Donkey Kong have no reason why they couldn’t have gotten Star Fox 64 3D and Donkey Kong Kong Country Returns 3D stages.

            “Why not complain about “Alt Costume Mario”? ” – Why do you assume I don’t? I HATE Dr Mario; he’s the most underserving character he the history of Smash Bros. He should have never returned and he should have never been in Melee either. Worst character, hands down. Doesn’t change the fact that a character who essentially Pit’s palette swap with an angrier personality is also lame.

            “but everybody overlooks him just because, “oh it’s Mario, he can get however many lazy clones can be squeezed on the game, but heaven help Sakurai if he gives any other series a lazy clone. Sure there are some people who complain about Dr., but it sure isn’t anywhere near the number who bash on Lucina and Dark Pit, despite actually being new characters to the series.” – I’m not quite sure where you’ve been, but a LOT of people hate the other clones. Loads of people hate Dr Mario. Go look on Gamexplain’s “Dr Mario Moveset Tour” video and the top comments are filled with clone apologists telling people to shut up about Dr Mario. Clearly if everybody overlooked Dr Mario as you claim there would be so many people online being idiots and defending him when people call out how stupid he is. Dr Mario is stupid and he overreps Mario by being a 7th rep. Lucina is stupid and she overreps Fire Emblem (FE should have 3, not 4). And Dark Pit is stupid and overreps Kid Icarus by being a 3rd rep. They’re all awful for laziness, overrepping and all should have been alt costumes.

            “Despite THREE handheld games, all they could be bothered to include is another Other M Varia suit trophy, and the crap Gravity “function” from Other M.” – You do realise in Brawl that 15 out of the 27 Metroid trophies were from the Prime games, right? And that a further 4 use their Prime design, making it 19/27. Don’t like act like Smash hasn’t focused on the latest Metroid game at the time before.

            “I apologize if it all comes of as inane rambling” – Well it does. I don’t accept you apology because your argument was flawed and biased. You are in complete and utter denial about Kid Icarus getting more than it deserves, and completely ignore that the other clones get hate too. KID ICARUS DOES NOT DESERVE THREE CHARACTERS. It’s a series that consists of three games, and one of them was obscure as heck (the Gameboy one). Uprising was big and it did entitle the series to some new stuff. It definitely deserved a newcomer; Palutena is a great choice. It did deserve some items and Smash Run enemies. But your in denial if you think Sakurai would have given it a third character and EIGHTEEN enemies if it wasn’t his game. He was never majorly biased against Kirby; a franchise he created, so I have no idea why he’s biased for a series that he simply revived rather than created. Mario and Pokemon have a lot of games. If they had less they’d deserve less. If Kid Icarus had about 8 or 10 games, it’d deserve more stuff. Also, Fire Emblem had a big new game and with the exception of Lucina being unnecessary, it got no items and no Smash Run enemies. It’s clear Uprising got so much because Sakurai made it, and that’s a fact.

          • MagcargoMan

            So, are you gonna bother to respond after I spent time responding to your comment?

            Also, ignore the bit where I ask about Dr Mario and Dark Pit being planned for alts because I’ve seen the article now.

          • Ben Sylvia

            Well mostly I’ve just gotten tired of discussing the issue.

            Also I didn’t really feel like constantly scrolling up and down to remember everything you said as I type a reply. I honestly didn’t think anyone would bother reading what I had said since it was so freaking long. XD

            The one thing I can remember from reading/skimming the whole thing was something about Male Wii Fit trainer would count as a 2nd Wii Fit rep. Not necessarily. The key difference between the Koopalings and Alph as alts, and the characters with gender flip alts, is the gender flip ones don’t have huge differences between the two. So you pick a male/female character in Animal Crossing, you still play the game the same way. Male/female in Awakening, aside from different marriage options you still play the game the same way.

            The Koopalings are all very different, and while they’ve never really been playable in a significant capacity outside Mario Kart 8, the way you fight them in the Mario games are all significantly different. Now obviously Alph and the other 2 in Pikmin 3 all play exactly like Olimar and company in Pikmin 2, but Alph is still a different character and not just a gender flipped Olimar (obviously). I mean, one could certainly count Male WF Trainer, Fem Robin, and all 8 villagers as additional reps for those franchises, I don’t personally because to me they’re the same character with cosmetic differences. But that’s just how I see it.

            And I do agree, more characters should have gotten alt character costumes. Fierce Deity should have totally been a different model with armor and helix sword (even if it’d be shrunk down to Master Sword size.) That would have been boss. But I can certainly hope that if Smash does end up getting DLC (which it probably will) Sakurai decides to take a page from Mario Kart 8 and/or Hyrule Warriors, and include additional costumes for characters alongside more significant content like new characters and stages. And trophies. God I love trophies.

            Princess Shroob Peach would have been awesome too, despite all the Mario stuff getting old. I got nothing against Mario, it’s just in a crossover game supposed to be about Nintendo as a whole it’s rather off-putting when Mario has to have the most content in near every area.

            And there are about 6 Uprising enemies I would gladly get rid of.

          • MagcargoMan

            “Not necessarily. The key difference between the Koopalings and Alph as alts, and the characters with gender flip alts, is the gender flip ones don’t have huge differences between the two. So you pick a male/female character in Animal Crossing, you still play the game the same way. Male/female in Awakening, aside from different marriage options you still play the game the same way.
            I mean, one could certainly count Male WF Trainer, Fem Robin, and all 8 villagers as additional reps for those franchises, I don’t personally because to me they’re the same character with cosmetic differences. But that’s just how I see it.”

            Ah, but unlike Robin or Villager, the two Wii Trainers are actually separate people in Wii Fit, not one avatar whose gender can be chosen. That was my point. If Koopalings count as extra reps, then so does M WFT since he’s a separate character from F WFT rather than a gender-flipped avatar.

            Well I was kinda hoping you’d address some of the other stuff in that big reply of mine, but I guess since I sort of forced you to reply I’ll leave you be. Have fun with Smash 4.

          • Ben Sylvia

            I honestly wouldn’t know about that thing with WFT because my only knowledge of Wii Fit is that it exists. XD

            But something I thought of a while after I answered, the Koopalings and Alph all have trophies specifically designating them included in the fighters section. The gender flips only have the default character’s All-Star mode trophy. Except Male Wii fit Trainer, who also gets the “Dancer” trophy, so I guess he can be counted as a rep as well. So the game does have 60 characters. *confetti and fireworks*

            And there was something I was gonna respond with to another of your points, but I just totally forgot what it was. Eh.

          • MagcargoMan

            I know this is late, but I kinda wish you would read it. I did take the time to read your full post, and took time to make my big reply. A sense of closure would be nice.

          • Ben Sylvia

            Oh and also because Disqus new little window thing that pops up with replies just hasn’t wanted to load for the past several days.

        • HarakiriKami

          sakurai is our lord and savior who made this game with calcific tendinitis you heathen. YOU WILL PAY HIM ThE RESPECT H’IS DUE

          • MagcargoMan

            A saviour wouldn’t bring the plague of clones or take characters away just so both versions can have the same roster.

          • HarakiriKami

            Why dont you make the game then.

            After we chop one of your arms off.

          • MagcargoMan

            Edgy fanboy is edgy.

            Also, Ice Climbers were working in the Wii U version. So them being cut had nothing to do with Sakurai’s bad hand. Try again.

          • MagcargoMan

            Even though your next comment got deleted I’m still gonna reply to it.

            “And you’re a full with no backbone”

            No, not sucking up to someone is the exact opposite of being spineless. Try again.

            Also, love how you call someone a fool but don’t even spell it right.

      • HarakiriKami

        Yup

  • Black-Moustache

    Thinking about all these “It’s because of the 3DS” reasons i’m thinking this game could have been more impressive, but only cos £DS dropped out 30mil units they were like “I’ll put money over quality”. Fuck sakes Nintendo stop making systems that would be considered powerful back in the 90’s.

    • HarakiriKami

      The 3DS is a little more powerful than the Iphone from 2009. It released in 2011.

      I dont know why’re grumbling over there.

      • Black-Moustache

        All I’m hearing is that PSP can still rock better quality games. 3D viewing Vs Graphics Hmm….

        • HarakiriKami

          Lol. you’re a damn fool huh? 3DS is more powerful than PSP. In every aspect.

          • Black-Moustache

            Gotta love those jagged pixels on every game huh? Monster Hunter looks better on the PSP than the 3DS.

          • HarakiriKami

            If you think so. But then I’d ask you if your eyes have a vaseline filter on them

            Jaggies arent on every game either lol.

          • Black-Moustache

            You had all the time in world to be funny with that comment and you failed. Vaseline filter? Really? Step your shit up. All the games have “jaggies”. Circles in their games look like pentagons.

          • HarakiriKami

            Yeah a blur filter. Cause you cant fucking see worth shit.
            Lol do you even know what a fucking jaggie is’?

            Its the same shit as he light reflecting off your window sill and the shadows looking like they got tiny razors on the edge. Thats a fucking jaggie. Do you know what causes them?

            Your forehead blocking the damn light.

          • Black-Moustache

            I don’t know who you are trying to impress as we’re the only ones in this conversation, but just stop you’re not funny. I know you’re upset because you are still trying to justify your purchase and you come here to be “funny”. Get off mah dick, bruh.

  • Ben Sylvia

    Eh, I like no transformations.

    We can now say Zelda is TP version, and Shiek is OoT Zelda with an HD makeover. XD

    And I can believe that normal Samus is the SA-X.

    And really, they probably could have gotten IC working on 3DS, but it likely would have caused more cuts. I think 51 characters on the select screen (with 8 more as alt costumes) is a good trade off. And if time restraints is what kept IC out, they could end up as DLC, since they don’t have a release date to meet with a large roster.

    • British_Otaku

      I don’t think it would have led to character cuts, but them limited what they pull off with the animations and stages would definitely be a thing.

      As good as it looks despite the fact that there are lots of new detail animations here that Brawl wishes it had, they are comprising some things.in other areas.

    • Aidan Gamble

      It wouldn’t have led to more character cuts. Sakurai said in an interview that the Icies were in a working state on both 3DS and Wii U, they just took up so much processing power that the 3DS version couldn’t run smoothly anymore. It wasn’t about dev time, it was about the 3DS’ CPU limitations.

      • Chaos-Mafioso

        Makes sense. I shiver at the thought of the lag that would have caused having 8 ice climbers on-screen ._.

  • http://twitter.com/puchixseda puchinri

    Hmmm. MMM. Mmnngmgm. Grumble grumble.

    I feel like I understand what he means and it makes sense, but there’s a part of me that wants to dispute it because of things in the game itself, but that me is also being intentionally ignorant. vnv

    They also have their hands tied, because the game was in development before the new 3DS could have become a thing (to my thinking), but if they make a version for it now, is that fair to everyone who can’t get one?

    There sure is a lot at play here. For me though, even with logic factoring in, I’m still not happy about the decision to separate them, but it’s also just a small portion on things that bother me about the roster (which is the weakest part of the game to me).

    • NeptuniasBeard

      Needs more mrgrgrrr

      I kinda wish they stayed together too. I used both Zelda and Shiek in battle to mess fools up. But alas…

      Sorry to hear you don’t like the roster ;_;

      I’m gonna wish for DLC characters just for you

      thumbsup.jpg

      • http://twitter.com/puchixseda puchinri

        Lol, when I grumble again (I inevitably will), I shall add more~.

        Yeah. I don’t even use Zelda often, but her having Sheik was pretty important for my playing her. There will be those that benefit and lose out either way~.

        I’m mixed about it. Incredibly so. Some parts have me really pumped and excited, and others made me not excited for the game as a whole for a moment. I’m mostly over it, but I know it’s going to loom in the back of my mind whenever I even think about the game. x’D

        DLC would be nice, but I’m just going to hope that the next entry can have a bigger roster, pack more punch and that by then, Nintendo has brought back/will plan to bring back more of their characters and titles and everyone can get a bit more lovin’. ♥

  • Shippoyasha

    That’s why the game should have had a Wii U focus, though with that kind of sales numbers, I can’t blame them for that either. I always thought the characters should be separate for fighting game parity reasons.

    I’m more peeved that more ambitiously designed characters like Ice Climbers aren’t there. And I wonder when they are going to announce DLC characters.

    • HarakiriKami

      … Sales have little if anything to do with it.

      • Shippoyasha

        It’s not like Nintendo is doing it for charity. It is a business.

        • HarakiriKami

          Considering they decided to put smash on the 3DS and Wii U before they were even out….

          • Shippoyasha

            Well, yeah. When 3DS sales were exploding and Wii U sales were iffy. They know what they are doing. I don’t really blame them.

          • HarakiriKami

            …. 3DS wasnt exploding in sales when that announcement was made either you know lol

  • http://www.gs-adeptsrefuge.com/forums/ Witch Rolina

    I rather like the fact that there’s no more transforming characters – it felt like nobody went back and forth anyways, preferring one form over another. This make more sense from that approach than a “limitation” approach.

  • triablos

    This is something good about the limitations. I hated how some characters would have one less move just for a transformation and let’s be honest, pretty much everyone who used a two-in-one character always stuck to one, not switching between the two.

    Also, ZSS gets a final smash.

    • Vash bane

      I didn’t I normally used them depending on what opponents do.

      example I had a friend who did hit and run I’d either use sheik to hunt them down or use Zelda and fire ball them in the distance also because Zelda had a very strong kick.

      she has a smash too? cool I might have to look that up thanks :)

  • Altumn

    I know its a weird complaint… But I don’t like the boob on Sheik

    • RajaNaga

      Yeah, I don’t think it looks as good as Melee’s.. doesn’t look so masculine anymore :<

      • Avinash Tyagi

        Considering Sheik is just Zelda in drag, it makes sense that its not too masculine

  • wahyudil

    I always use Sheik rather than Zelda … and i don’t like Zero Suit Samus in Brawl … so I think this is rather a good direction … althought I don’t like the fact that the limitation of 3DS has brought down the Wii U version too

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