I disagree with your defining points on the 360 RPG exclusivity too. SO4 would’ve been 360 first regardless, and that’s due to tri-Ace’s experience. I also think we’d have gotten LR sooner too, which is mostly a result of the engine used. Both cases are more a result of technology and timing favoring MS being the driving factor, not investment from Microsoft directly. Same with Vesperia too, without these other factors working in Microsoft’s favor already, these games wouldn’t have these windows.

FFXIII is questionable, and I don’t think one should undercount the lengths Microsoft went to get it, but then I also sort of doubt MS went that far out of their way to nab stuff like VF5 or DMC4. The truth is, market realities are probably the chief reason we’re seeing FFXIII 360, same as with DMC4 or VF5.

Genius Sonority is a 2nd party, not 1st party, and that´s what I meant to say. It´s not like Monolith Soft (for example), where they own most of the company.

“As for Monster Hunter, here’s a reference to Iwata’s comments…”

The actual quote doesn´t say much…just that they´re making efforts to offer services to “those who play them hard” (games). I don´t trust the media when they read between the lines…so I´ll need to see more than that. Sometimes, the most simple answer is the correct one…and as I said before, moving one of your most important franchises in Japan from PS3 to Wii, after surprising Wii sales, dissapointing PS3 sales and with much lower development costs is common sense. Even more when Capcom didn´t have practically anything announced for Wii at the time and several PS3 projects already.

Let´s not forget that Nintendo wasn´t in the best position at the time to get games through incentives (at the begining of Wii´s success) while Microsoft and Sony were in different situations.

I don´t know if Kojima has any brand loyalty, but the main reason in my opinion was to take the most out of the hardware he was using, specially since it was supposed to be the last MGS game from him. MGS IV is optimized for the PS3, and it even includes a joke about multidisc games inside the game, as well as Sixaxis support. I don´t rule out the possibility of Sony spending money on the game, but I think that the game was supposed to be a PS3 game from the beginning, so at the most, it would be a 1st party/3rd party colaboration and not a game that could have appeared as multiplatform.

“Well I do think Microsoft likely has given incentives for SO4, Last Remnant and FFXIII, but in each case there were also other factors pushing for the 360 release outside just MS investment.”

Then we agree. I never said that it was the only reason, but the defining one. I think that without Microsoft´s incentives, The Last Remnant would have released at the same time (yes, Square would have waited to appear neutral, just like others have), FF XIII could still have been released on 360 later (depending on PS3 sales, both software and hardware) and Tales of Vesperia and Star Ocean could have been announced as multiplatform already (even if S-E has to port it).

There has been rumors recently about the PS3 version of FFXIII getting delayed in favor of the 360 version, which makes sense. After all, because the PS3 version will get released in Japan before, it seems that S-E will develop the PS3 version first, and then port it while localizing the game. Just because it´s the same engine doesn´t mean that there´s no changes to be made, specially with the media issues (no Blu-Ray or full HDD support) and different hardware architechtures.

I don´t know what happened exactly with VF5 (which appeared later on 360) or DMC4…(Mercenaries 2 is even on PS2) but those weren´t as big a FFXIII (nor in budget or expected sales), or as popular in Japan as the JRPGs. It makes sense that after dissapointing PS3 sales, Sony losses them as exclusives, which is not the same as getting them later or not getting them at all.

“That you immediately assume Microsoft’s “moneyhatting” near everything under the sun, yet Sony didn’t pay out handsomely for their biggest exclusive this generation really baffles me?”

I don´t assume for every game, and I´m aware that I can´t be entirely sure…But unlike Sony, we already know sure cases from Microsoft like Rock Band 2 and GTA IV exclusive content. Those, added to the weird “coincidences” of getting most JRPGs (even a big PS3 exclusive) for a console that doesn´t sell in Japan…it´s too weird. Developers are dismissing PS3´s 2nd place in Japan for less than a 6 million WW difference ? Not to mention the Wii. It doesn´t make sense without Microsoft´s incentives…but like I said before, it´s their right to do so.

And by the way, just to clarify, I don´t have any interest in defending Sony…I´m a Nintendo fan (which doesn´t own a Wii yet), and I don´t even plan on getting a PS3 at the time (or a 360). I just think that Microsoft´s strategy is obvious, and I´m just pointing at it.

PS: big discussion, right ? While it´s interesting and entertaining, I think we have already discussed everything. I´ll read your comment if you want to add something, but I won´t post again unless there´s some question to answer.

Well I do think Microsoft likely has given incentives for SO4, Last Remnant and FFXIII, but in each case there were also other factors pushing for the 360 release outside just MS investment. Crystal Tools is multiformat middleware and FFXIII’s base is actually on PC, a 360 FFXIII coming day and date with the PS3 rev makes sense. You’ll notice Sony’s held on to their JP exclusive and have been touting that. Basically everyone’s been having trouble with UE3 on PS3, so why not squeeze out the 360 Last Remnant before the holidays and then go back to work on the PS3 code? Maybe doing day and date would’ve made both versions slip into 2009, and since it’s developed for Americans first anyway, they’d prefer it on the leading American machine this year if possible. And as for SO4, it’s more a tri-Ace decision than a Square Enix one, and their reasons seem pretty obvious (prefabbed engine, tool familiarity, relationship with MS, etc). I actually don’t know if tri-Ace will ever bother with PS3, they tend to just focus on one machine a generation and their games actually sell better in the west than nationally anyway… I really do think a PS3 SO4 might be entirely outsourced (a la SO1-2 PSP).

And MGS4 has undoubtedly seen heavy Sony investment… I doubt Kojima cares much about brand loyalty, he actually wanted to port MGS3 to Xbox but didn’t feel there was enough market left. I think near everyone expects to see MGS4S on PS3, 360 and PC in late 2009, similar to MGS2S in 2002. That you immediately assume Microsoft’s “moneyhatting” near everything under the sun, yet Sony didn’t pay out handsomely for their biggest exclusive this generation really baffles me? Plenty of games this gen started out PS3 only and that hasn’t kept them off 360 (DMC4, VF5, Mercenaries 2, FFXIII, etc).

As for Monster Hunter, here’s a reference to Iwata’s comments…

http://blog.wired.com/games/2007/10/iwata-monster-h.html

…and as for Genius Sonority, here’s a link to their company profile page, where they show that Nintendo (both directly and via subsidiaries) owns 39% of the company…

http://www.geniussonority.jp/cat1/

Well, assuming that Tri-Ace wants to use an in-house engine that only runs on 360 at the moment…it makes sense that they didn´t go multiplatform. But if Tri-Ace wants to develop for PS3 at some point, wouldn´t they have to create an engine for it ? (or port the 360 one). Are they never going to make a game from the ground up for PS3, or a 360/PS3 game at the same time ? I don´t know, it still seems strange to me, specially because none of this explains why they took so long to announce the platform…

In FF XIII´s case, I don´t see why Microsoft had to get the game now, while Sony has to wait for a SO4 announcement. Assuming that there´s no “moneyhatting” involved, what made S-E care about releasing the game at the same time on both consoles ? (in the West) Why not releasing FF XIII at a later date on 360, just like an SO4 port for PS3 ? When you add The Last Remnant´s case to these two, then you have 3 strange “coincidences” from the same publisher… And if Microsoft didn´t give any incentive to S-E to get those games earlier, I don´t see why Sony has to give incentives to get SO4 or ToV announced now (if are indeed coming).

Like I said before, I agree that Haze was likely “moneyhatted”, because it was supposed to be a multiplatform game from the beginning…but that´s not MGSIV´s case. I suspect that Kojima had something to do with it, and that the game was planned from the beginning on PS3 only. I don´t think we´ll ever see it on 360, unless PS3 sales diminish severely, which I don´t see happening soon. It would take a lot of work to port it, and it has sold well enough on PS3. And they can always release an improved version afterwards to sell more, like with previous games.

I don´t have any reason to believe that what Capcom stated for Monster Hunter 3 was not true…it´s just common sense, unlike those exclusive JRPG games on 360. I don´t know what Iwata said (if you remember when and where, let me know), but just using the opportunity to say that they care about “core” gamers is not out of the question.

As for Dragon Quest Swords…I don´t think it´s “moneyhatting”. It was supposed to be a Wii project from the beginning, which can´t be done on other console because of the Wii-mote. It makes sense that since it was S-E´s first Wii game, they decided to use a 2nd party developer for Wii (which is not owned by Nintendo) to help development, along with 8ing.

I think that “moneyhatting” refers to cases like Rock Band 2 (announced multiplatform, but on 360 first), GTA IV exclusive downloadable content or (if “moneyhatting” is the case) ToV, FF XIII, Haze and SO4 (getting games, or it´s exclusivity when you weren´t supposed to). I don´t consider “moneyhatting” to make games in a 1st party/3rd party colaboration (like Ninja Gaiden II, Gears of War, Fatal Frame IV, DQ Swords and Infinite Undiscovery could be).

tri-Ace makes a point of developing their own inhouse engines. Infinite Undiscovery and Star Ocean 4 both use their own ground up 360 engine, not Crystal Tools or UE3. A PS3 port would assuredly take much more than “2 or 3 extra months”, and if it happens I sort of doubt tri-Ace themselves will be the ones porting (more likely Square handles it directly or contracts out to TOSE or whoever).

FFXIII was announced because it’ll be day and date multiplatform in the west. Square and Microsoft will both want to build up hype for the 360 SKU, and I don’t doubt Microsoft moved heaven and earth to get the announcement this early. Maybe had Sony worked a bit harder, we’d have SO4 PS3 confirmed by now also… you’ll notice Square Enix has gone out of their way NOT to say it’s 360 exclusive in all the PR. Ditto for Namco and Tales of Vesperia, the developers have even said the main reason it’s 360 only at this point is because it was the only available platform ready when development started in late 2005… and even still they talk about the liklihood of a PS3 port in nearly every interview. Both are “on 360 right now” but neither has been a wholly committed exclusive (unlike FF Vs XIII actually).

About the other listed games, there’s no doubt SCEI invested in MGS4 or Haze imo. Otherwise, given it’s huge western hardware and software leads, I think we’d already have both on 360.. and truthfully, I expect both probably will hit 360 eventually, probably after their year long window expires (a la Bioshock or Lost Planet on PS3). Nintendo went out of their way to secure Monster Hunter 3, Iwata even said it was targeted specifically in an effort to start ramping up for core audiences iirc. And DQ Swords was even made by a Nintendo funded studio (Genius Sonority), after Nintendo had given Horii a personal early demonstration of the Revolution. Nintendo has their fingers deep in both titles, even if they’re not publishing them.

I don´t know which engine is Star Ocean using, but I find it hard to believe that while having the UE3 and the Crystal Tools as alternatives, none of those are been used. And if S-E wants to port the game to PS3 eventually (as some speculate), it would make much sense to develop the game on a multiplatform engine rather than just on a 360 engine.

It doesn´t matter anyway, since even if they are using now a 360-only engine, the option of using a multiplatform engine for a PS3/360 release was always available, and that was what I was saying before.

Monster Hunter 3 was not “moneyhatted”… Unlike Star Ocean 4 or Tales of Vesperia for 360, it makes perfect sense that Monster Hunter appeared on Wii. Capcom stated that the reason for the game to be moved to the Wii was the high development costs of the PS3 version (specially when compared to the Wii), which is an obvious difference and it´s a subject that has been discussed several times. Furthermore, the decision was made when PS3 was really struggling in sales (not that it´s much better now though) while Wii sales were surprising everyone. Not every exclusive is “moneyhatted”, and when you have the best selling console, you´re not forced to do it.

And while I heard speculation about Sony “moneyhatting” games before (SC III comes to mind, aside Haze or maybe MGSIV), Microsoft´s open strategy of getting games earlier (even those which are multiplatform from the beginning) and buying exclusive content is much more evident…it doesn´t compare.

As for 360 being the JRPG console…we´ll see. You claim that Pedro Silva is ignoring the western JRPG audience, but you´re forgetting that nobody expected the 360 to be the console for JRPG games. I would dare to say that most JRPG fans are still on PS3 or Wii in the West (excluding PS2, of course), as those consoles were expected to get more japanese games than 360. Besides, PS3 is on it´s way to outsell 360 in Europe, and you´re not just ignoring Japan for JRPG games (which may not be everything, but is clearly essential) but you´re also ignoring the Wii.

By the way, it doesn´t make any sense to compare the PS1/N64 era to this one like you did…too many different variables…

I wonder what you would’ve said 10 years ago when jRPGs abandoned their home on Nintendo consoles for the PS1. Seemed to work out fine for the genre.

I think in this day and age, confining a genre to one platform, especially one that has problems moving software like the PS3, is not a good idea. Furthermore, the PS3 is NOT the PS2. Look at the exclusives Sony is pushing these days for the PS3: Killzone 2, MAG, Resistance 2 … gee, which box is the shooterbox again?

The 360 for now is the jRPG console. Why? Because Japan, and the PS3, can not support AAA jRPGs by itself anymore. On top of this, the 360 is easier to develop for, so it’s possible to make a profit on a 360 jRPG while spending a lot less money developing it than it would on the PS3, all things being equal. To be fair, what you’d really want to do is publish multiplatform.

The PS3 still has jRPGs that will never see the light of day on the 360. Valkyria Chronicles, Disgaea 3, NIS’ next game. But I think you’re ignoring the jRPG audience in the West that does exist and is growing on the 360. It’s there and it’s happening, like it or not. And if it makes Sony step up their jRPG game, then all the better. Competition is good.

Further note: The 360’s sales in Japan are pitiful, but take a look at the charts. The PS3’s are as well. The money in Japan is on the DS, but that’s another topic.

@ seiya19

There’s no evidence the IU/SO4 engine has been ported to PS3 at this time. Those games are using neither Crystal Tools nor Unreal.

Both Sony and Microsoft moneyhat; Sony’s just finding that they’re going to have to moneyhat jRPGs that they didn’t have to before. Like I said, competition is good.

(Even Nintendo moneyhats every now and then. Hello Monster Hunter 3)

“Star Ocean 4 benefitted directly from the work tri-Ace did on that as well, which is why it’s leading on 360. On 360 tri-Ace already have experience, they have an engine in place and a good working relationship with Microsoft as well. If SO4 was a PS3 project, it wouldn’t be ready by spring 2009, to say the least… I don’t doubt it will be on PS3 at some point, but why talk about it now? Why artificially limit 360 sales, when the PS3 SKU probably wouldn’t be ready day and date anyway?”

I don´t believe that´s reason enough for S-E and Tri-Ace to dismiss PS3 sales of SO4… The game is either being made with the Crystal Tools or Unreal Engine 3, both which are middleware multiplatform tools. Does it make sense that the game gets announced for 360 only, just because it takes 2 or 3 extra months to release the game on PS3 ? I don´t think so…specially with 360´s situation in Japan.

And assuming that the game is indeed coming to PS3 at a later date…Why is S-E not able to announce it now ? You claimed that this would limit 360 sales, but isn´t it the same case as FF XIII ? Wouldn´t that be limiting PS3 sales ? (according to the same logic)

I just don´t see how it makes sense that FF XIII appears on 360 to increase sales, but not SO4 on PS3 (which would probably need more the extra sales). Or that FF XIII gets announced on 360 now, but S-E can´t/doesn´t want to announce SO4 on PS3 (if it´s eventually coming). Or even that Tales of Vesperia hasn´t been announced for PS3 already if it´s indeed coming at a later date.

All of these only makes sense to me if Microsoft gave incentives for these exclusives/timed exclusives, just like Rock Band 2 getting released first on 360. But like I said before, Microsoft has every right to use their money as they please…it´s just that I don´t understand how these incentives can be denied.

And by the way, I don´t know why you mentioned Monster Hunter 3 or Dragon Quest Swords as being games affected by incentives… I think that Fatal Frame IV would be the only one that could have incentives from Nintendo (like Ninja Gaiden II) but I really doubt that the game wasn´t supposed to be for Wii in the first place. As for Sony, I don´t know, but I´m guessing that Kojima could have something to do with MGS4 and maybe Square wants to leave at least a PS3 exclusive for now. I think Haze is the most likely. Still, those are nothing compared to Microsoft this gen…

Now we could argue square is as guilty as Microsoft, and I agree. But it’s Microsoft calling the shots and paying buckets for everything, a strategy that, quite honestly, I’m quite sick of at this point when it comes to SO4 and LR benefiting their platform. (and specially SO4 not even being confirmed for PS3 owners) That’s something that Square wouldn’t ever do otherwise, and as I said before a disservice for their userbase.

Don’t get me wrong though, I’m not one of those guys who were like “OMG FFXIII X360, you suck Square-Enix” sure moneyhat but wasn’t harmful, funny to see how desperate M$ is, but that’s just it. Point being, they’re still getting the game, what I got an issue with is… what they (PS3 owners) don’t know if they’re getting, despite being established, and like said, promoted on sony platforms to raise a userbase (Star Ocean 1 and 2 remakes on PSP, plus SO4 promotion on them)

If Microsoft hadn’t paid what they did so far, to all JRPG developers, they wouldn’t touch X360 with a stick, that’s the truth.

Microsoft does dole out nice incentives for exclusivity (usually in the form of massively reduced royalty fees or 1st party sponsored advertising), but so what, all the manufacturers do that (MGS4, Haze, Monster Hunter 3, DQ Swords, FFvsXIII, Fatal Frame 4, etc, etc). Microsoft’s playing the same hand Sony usually does, and better than them… maybe you should be less critical of Microsoft’s actions and more concerned with Sony’s inaction? They’re the ones dropping the ball here…