How Tomb Raider Is Different From Uncharted According To Crystal Dynamics

By Ishaan . June 12, 2012 . 12:00pm

Following Crystal Dynamics and Square Enix’s recent Tomb Raider trailer and E3 presentation, many have compared the new game to Sony and Naughty Dog’s Uncharted series. Crystal Dynamics Studio Head, Darrell Gallagher, however, says that the two games will feel different when you play them from start to finish, owing to smaller things that add up along the way. In an internal Square Enix interview, Gallagher shares:

 

“Well, naturally, they’re action-adventure, OK, so there’s going to be some comparison. I don’t think we can get away with that. And there are certain things the Uncharted series has done, which is borrowed heavily from Tomb Raiders [of] old. So, again, there’s gonna be some crossover.  That said, I think when we show the game as a whole—when you get to experience it, start to finish—we believe there’s a lot of differences between the two.

 

“I guess the comparison I can make is, you can have two summer blockbusters, and they can be big action things, with two different actors and things like tone and mood and story separate the two very differently. So, our tone is very different. Our storyline, our narrative. Our lead character is very different.

 

“And deeper than that, in terms of the gameplay, we have a resourcefulness to Lara, right, that you start seeing in some of the demos we’ve given, which I think is again a different thing to Uncharted. Also, our game structure. I think we have some wider areas. I think our hubs, which we’ve not necessarily shown yet. I think they’re a really big differentiator. Our ability to re-traverse. The ability system on the island. Hunting. The ability to go and take deer and other animals on the island.

 

“I think there’s a lot of small differences that actually make the two products sort of stand apart when you actually experience them in full. So, there’s not just like one big thing, right. It’s not like you look at a summer blockbuster, and this is one big thing and a movie is different because of that. A lot of small pieces add up to something different.”

 

Tomb Raider will be released for the PC, Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3 on March 5th, 2013. A movie based on the game’s story is being produced as well.


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  • usagi_san

    Funny that a reboot of an old series is being compared to Uncharted. Besides sharing the same genre, I don’t see how people can be comparing the two. If it is about gameplay, to me, Tomb Raider seems to offer more in that aspect. 

    After seeing the demo at E3, I’m liking this game even more. I only played Uncharted 3 for a minute amount of time, and found controlling Drake to be fixed as if he was on a rail track.

    • Rohan Viajar

       agreed on the comparison thing.
      people nowadays care to much about things like that.

      I remember when I was a kid all I did was play games and enjoy them for myself and not worry about silly things such as who borrowed from who.

      even in literature it says “everything is borrowed from something” so why bother comparing in the first place.

      • TheFoolArcana

        So when a game is a carbon copy of another game, you should ignore it? People compare because they don’t like having to experience the same things over and over. Variety is the spice of life.

        • Katamari Toys

          unfortunately, this does not apply in games, these days is SAME = GOOD, NEW = BAD :/

          • usagi_san

            With the development cost of games increasing a new IP is harder to sell unless it does something new for existing fans of that genre, and can pull others out off their comfort zone. However, gamers are partially to blame too. Where they would find small faults, or superficial problems, in the game that see it selling less than what was projected. 

        • Rohan Viajar

           true. variety is good, but I think you don’t fully understand my message.
           I never mentioned carbon copy.
          carbon copy means = 100 % the same.
          when I mentioned the everything is borrowed from something. it meant that people make things by drawing from all kinds of different sources. so it means that there is a high chance that some element was borrowed somewhere. (also due to the duration of the human race. some things are bound to repeat)

          but when people compare things they aren’t actually 100 % percent the same. maybe some similar elements but not completely.

          still, I never said comparing in itself was bad.

           I was more or less talking about how instead of intently focusing on the similarities (or how one borrowed from another.) which seems to happen way too much. it’s like people are so hell bent on finding similarities. kind of like how some people are radical anti-sexist that sometimes they may get caught up on trying to interpret almost everything as sexist.

          so instead of doing that. you should just play the games “you” would like to play because “you” enjoy it. and not because other people say it’s “copies” (implying that a copy would mean they are 100% the same)

          still you can compare if you’d like. but that shouldn’t stop you from enjoying a game (or be the deciding factor). just because some things may be similar doesn’t mean it isn’t enjoyable for you or for others. :D

          • TheFoolArcana

            What I focused on was when you wrote, “why bother comparing in the first place?” Obviously, you can understand why I responded the way I did.

            And of course nothing is ever 100 percent the same. But that doesn’t mean that when a game looks and feels the same as another a red flag shouldn’t go off in your head. :P

            By the way, I play whatever I want regardless of what other people say lol

        • usagi_san

          The real question is, “What hasn’t a been copied?”

          Concerning whether something is a copy or not, should be left to an individual to decide. We all say “Variety is the spice life” but you’ll be surprised by the number of people who play it safe and stay with what they know. Hence why we have many Japanese titles having niche appeal.   

          • TheFoolArcana

            I was mostly referring to the situation with games like Call of Duty/Medal of Honor, rather than nagging on every little aspect of a game that is in another game. That’s pointless.

            Every country has its own niche though, its not like the American market is much more varied than the Japanese market. We have niches everywhere and within all those niches fresh games are spawned.

  • XYZ_JolteonZ980

    Well the initially clear difference is that Tomb Raider, this one, is already more serious and intense than the most recent Uncharted. Uncharted has that comedy and character interaction that really brings the characters to life. In a different vein Tomb Raider, at least from what they have shown, definitely does not have this and starts out with Lara way more desperate and abandoned than those characters in Uncharted were. There is also the underlying romance element in that series that I would be baffled for this to have. Perhaps some gameplay mechanics may feel similar but there is no way that one viewing the gameplay and trailer could say made it feel similar to Uncharted.

    I also do not think this will have those large set pieces that categorized each Uncharted, train scene in UC 2, plane in UC 3 and Uncharted has been quite colorful in locations. I guess the island is kind of limiting to Tomb Raider in that regard unless it can span many different environments beyond the river and the ocean bank…and please no shipwreck gameplay.

    • Testsubject909

      There will be a shipwreck gameplay, I’m quite sure.

      Though I quite enjoyed some of those in previous Tomb Raider games.

      Trying to escape a sinking ship for example, while being in the sinking ship, as it goes through all the phases, the ship tilting upward, the entire cargo inside the ship tumbling around, it was great intense good fun…

      It’s just a shame that winning means Lara stays alive…

      • malek86

        Oho, that reminds me of the “Ship Falls” level in Jedi Knight. Pretty fun stuff, especially because it was usually introduced by your former mentor calling you out for defecting to the dark side, and abandoning you for good.

        Of course, you could also not defect, and then he would stay. But how many people got the good ending on the first try? Come on now, we know everyone liked killing those civilians. They dropped ammo and items.

        • Testsubject909

          The dark side is strong in this one.

  • http://www.fogalchemist.com/ caleb1993

    I’m glad they’re discussing this fact. I for one do not care what game borrows from what other game when it comes to ideas and am just very excited for this release. It looks to be shaping up great and I cannot wait to experience it from start to finish.

    Others though, seem to need this clarification and if it helps add more people to the list of those picking up the game, then go for it.

  • jakxzero

    Who ever think Tomb Raider is a copy of Uncharted is a retarded its like thinking that Dante inferno or Castlevania LOD is a copy on God of war, Now everytime a game that have the same style of gameplay is just a copy? GOW didn’t invented the Hack and Slash Uncharted didnt invented the Adventure. I hate when the people think there only one game per genre and all other games are just ripoff.

    • http://chronotwist.deviantart.com/ JustThisOne

      I’m sure people can’t honestly believe that everything’s a ripoff of each other. (Right?) I think it’s just an easy way to describe a game – with another game that has a lot of similar mechanics.

      Just like how Monster Hunter has somehow evolved into a style of game where everyone mauls a giant together.

      Or how all MMOs are a WoW clone and so on.

      • Testsubject909

        Eh… I’ve seen a lot of young gamers who proclaim that this or that is a ripoff of this or that.

        And I’ve heard Justin Bieber fans screaming out about how Queen ripped off Bieber because a song’s title that Queen made years ago is similar to a song’s title that Bieber has.

        You just got to expect that level of ignorance… And be depressed about it. I mean, prepare to correct it and deal with it… and be depressed about it.

        • Guest

           Bieber fans aren’t sane

          • Testsubject909

            “Perhaps the same could be said of all fanatics…”

            Sorry, still got some castlevania memes in me.

        • http://wiredjungle.wordpress.com/ DrakosAmatras

          “young gamers”

          And there’s the problem.

    • http://twitter.com/adamdragonhero AdamAnimeHero

      Using offensive words and bad grammar & spelling is not the best way to make your point..

      • Testsubject909

        No, but his core argument is still solid and worth it’s weight. As such, I’m not going to dismiss it.

        Plus, for all we know, entirely theoretical here, he might be dyslexic. In which case, could you really blame him for the typoes?

        • puchinri

          But using retarded and such? There’s never an excuse to be ableist or anything. There are dictionaries and such online. We can avoid using potentially offensive language~.

          • Testsubject909

            Sorry sorry.

            If you couldn’t tell. My hatred of Lara (specifically new Lara, I got nothing against old PSX/PC Lara) is pretty much…… I want to see her suffer.

      • Guest

         I liked it. Some ignorant people need to be hit with the verbal hammer sometimes…

    • http://lukalovesgames.blogspot.de/ Alkaid

       Of course you’re right and your argument is really solid but it is a fact that… most games nowadays use the same core mechanics, camera angles, the same climbable flat walls and so on (see Darksiders 2). It’s not that the game itself is a rip-off but developers make it seem that way because they can not think of a fresh way to represent things.

      Most of them think: “Hey that worked in GoW, smething similar might work in Castlevania Lords of Shadow too!”
      I can’t deny that I see a bit of Uncharted in there, but it doesn’t hurt the idea because a different game is still a different game. And I can’t remember Nathan Drake crawling through the jungle for days, nearly starving and then killing a living thing.

      Guess people are just tired of playing a diffrent game with the same mechanics just like you are tired of hearing “hey that looks exactly like —.”.
      Just look in the past titles, Onimusha and Alundra as well as Silent Hill and Zelda had hardcore riddles! Where are those now?
      It’s the same with the RE franchise, instead of going good old horror it gets more and more action because most people will likely buy it more because of that.

      And we can’t do a thing, if we don’t buy it a good series will vanish from the face of the earth (Breath of Fire, Wild Arms, and so on). But if we decide to buy it the developers will most likely think : “Hey they freakin love the changes we made! We did a good thing and invested our money very well! :D”
      No matter how you look at it, it’s wrong either way…

  • amagidyne

    Reading this interview makes me think it’s *more* like Uncharted than I did before. That last paragraph basically says it’s not going to be fundamentally different because all games in the same category (the “summer blockbuster” analogy is ambiguous) will be similar to some extent.

    Or at least I think that’s what he’s saying. You’d have to draw a parse tree just to untangle some of his answers.

    • Testsubject909

      It’s going to be like uncharted because that’s basically all we can get to.

      The core gameplay has already been finetuned to peak performance to current day standards, so unless they find something new to change up the formula, they’ll feel like an Uncharted game, like how Uncharted felt like a Tomb Raider game, just with nicer graphics and better shooting mechanics.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Stephen-Mc-Devitt/100002626261475 Stephen Mc Devitt

    QTEs are never a good sign nowadays and I worry if Lara will suffer the same mood swings as Samus and Aya Brea?

    Then again this is not the same Lara, she’s younger and not that experienced and probably new to surviving unlike those who already went up against tougher challanges time and again and suddenly decided to act like fools.

    I’m sure those who don’t like everyday-men, who are nice, make jokes and willing to kill hundreds of people with no problem, will like Lara.

    • amagidyne

       She’s still totally going to kill hundreds of people with no problem. Crystal Dynamics will just put in a cutscene where she feels bad about it for a few seconds before getting brutalized again.

      Oh sure, I don’t have any proof of this, but even the guys who made Homefront said they wanted to avoid “massacre fatigue”.

      • Testsubject909

        They should take Iji’s route.

        It’s a small indie game, a metroidvania and a damn good one.

        You can go the completely pacifist route or go killing everything. At first the protagonist sounds unwilling, sobbing, crying, asking for forgiveness, eventually she starts to silence herself and as you kill more and more enemies, she gets more like an action hero, an experienced soldier or almost seemingly downright bloodthirsty.

      • Guest

         Thing the I hated about Homefront is they basically took the premise of Red Dawn but turned it into Rambo. The support characters were annoying as hell too. Seriously can we have a FPS without the stereotypical loudmouth dudebros in every game? Especially if its about civilians?

    • Testsubject909

      She already had those in past games.

      Really, the only way to like Lara is to ignore just how obvious it is that everything is her own damn fault, how selfish she ultimately is, ignore all her character flaws because of bewbies and wet dirtehness zomg anniversary and underworld hawtness nostalgia goggles. Or if you played the original Tomb Raider, in which Lara’s at least flirtatious.

      I’d really just rather call her Sarah and never connect this Lara to the actual Lara Croft… Mainly because, if I mentally connect her to being Sarah, I am going to feel for her.

      If I connect her to Lara. I’m probably not going to be reacting the way that the creators intended. I’m probably going to scream of joy each time I hear her getting wounded or in pain and delighting in the fact that this abomination to humanity’s safety is suffering.

      *sigh*

      It’s really annoying when you’re in between loving the game’s gameplay and downright loathing and detesting the vile protagonist in it. Yes, to the point where I hate every iteration of her, even this new quote unquote innocent form of her… Mainly because I know this is a prequel which means she’ll just inevitably turn into a horrible selfish monster and plague to humanity.

    • Levin_Scorpius

      Aya Brea never had any noticeable mood swings in either Parasite Eve, PE2, or her five minute cameo appearance in The Third Birthday, what are you talking about?

    • Chris Lane

      Lara’s had QTE’s in her games for awhile now….at least I know I’ve encountered them since Legend.

  • SirRichard

    Well, one difference is that when Uncharted starts beating up its protagonist, I tend to cheer it on because it’s certainly the main thing on my mind after some of the things that come out of Drake’s mouth. 

    Plus Uncharted is deliriously hugging him like a small child would their beloved family pet, cherishing him as their greatest friend forever compared to the stuff Tomb Raider is putting Lara through. I’m hoping the final game is better about this, because I’m beginning to question the motives of someone at Crystal Dynamics, honestly.

    Otherwise, the only things I can see it having in common are the platforming in exotic locales (which Tomb Raider was always known for) and cover-based shooting, which hardly makes it an Uncharted clone.

    • mirumu

      Have you read the recent interview with Crystal Dynamics’ Ron Rosenberg elsewhere? I think it makes their motives pretty clear, and to me they’re completely out of touch with reality. There’s already quite a storm of controversy developing around the game and it looks like it’s only going to get worse if they continue down their current path.

      • SirRichard

        I hadn’t until now, actually, and…Jesus, that’s dodgy. Thing is, I can see what they’d be going for, but the way that guy phrases it just sounds terribly creepy (by my reading of it, anyway). The rape bit is a red flag all on its own, I can’t see that ending well at all given the rest of the things the guy said.

        Very wary about this game now, honestly.

        • Chris Lane

          You hit the nail on the head with that guy not wording any of his stuff right. I understand if there’s a rape situation because “hey these guys are really bad mercenary types and in a situation where she’s kidnapped by them some of them may try to rape her” but putting rape in a game just so it can have a darker feel? Tasteless man. 

          At least the gameplay looks solid IMO. And I don’t understand the comparisons to Uncharted. Tomb Raider was around long before Uncharted came about. Why do they have to mention that at all? 

          • Guest

             Because a lot of internet clowns do

          • Chris Lane

            lol well you would think the Uncharted devs would be the ones talking about how theyre making their game different from Tomb Raider is all I’m saying.

      • puchinri

        Wha? I’m really curious. . . going to hunt this down, because this comment and SirRichard’s reaction/comment are really intruiguing (and worrying. . .). 0u0;

        Mmmm. I’m actually really disappointed by that. A little sick. That was a lot of fail to be said. I guess I should try to ignore this game from now on. . .

        • mirumu

          I hadn’t wanted to drop links to other gaming sites since many places don’t like that, but the interview and some commentary on it are easy to find if you google “Ron Rosenberg tomb raider”.

          Given your previous comments about this game I’m inclined to think you won’t like what you see. There’s certainly no way I’m going to be buying this game after reading what Rosenberg said.

    • puchinri

      I really feel like the game is bordering torture porn. It does not at all help that someone actually tries to molest her, apparently. I wanted to be excited, but my early cynicism is slowly going, “told you so~.”

      And I really hate that.

      • Solomon_Kano

        Having just watched the E3 trailer, yea, I’m definitely getting that vibe. Stomach literally churned when the dude tries to molest her. Crystal Dynamics just lost me.

  • Testsubject909

    To me, the biggest differences in the two games are: (PS yes, it’s my old sing and dance here)

    At least with Drake, it’s pretty forward that he’s in it for himself or that he’s in it to get the girl, he’s pretty transparent that way.

    With Lara though, man that girl’s a freaking monster. And I don’t mean that in the positive way. Anyone who’s played Anniversary, Legends and Underworld should know far well, it’s all her own freaking fault and based mainly on her own selfishness. Sure, she saves the world, but it all feels incidental. It all feels as though it just happened to be in the way and wasn’t even a primary or even secondary goal, it was just something that happened while she was being entirely selfish. With her own selfishness causing said problem of world destructive danger to begin with, meaning that if we took her out of existence, the odds are good that we’d not have any of said dangers to begin with…

    Man, it hurts when you like the game but you hate the protagonist in it. Gameplay is good people, I’m not telling you otherwise. Just saying. Lara Croft? She deserves to burn at the stake.

    • http://www.silconera.com/ Tsunami_13

       Test you must really hate this character, I honestly never noticed those things about her when I played Underworld.  I’m gonna have to give it another run.

      • Testsubject909

        On underworld, keep in mind everything.

        Her mother disappeared in a huge flash of energy when she was a child.

        A child.

        Off to who knows where, a place called the underworld, underground, most likely without light or any food source if without any water, that’s on the off chance her mother is actually still alive.

        A child. At the very least a dozen years ago.

        And she goes off to break the Excalibur… The Excalibur, famed legendary magical weapon that can take down demons… For the impossible chance that her mother might be alive, on the way, unlocking the path for the great evil demon that she is herself in part to blame for her liberation and from her old time friend turned would be evil, though she actually belongs to an actual company that actually legally deals with ancient artifacts unlike Lara who collects them to stow them away in her mansion for her own personal enjoyment and whom I will note, has had dealings with the black market before if you’d remember one particular scene in a previous Tomb Raider game where she goes to meet a black market bigwig with hints as to the fact that they’ve had business dealings before…

        I’m just saying. The more you think about Lara, the more obvious it is, she’s just in it for herself for the most selfish and idiotic of reasons. Plus keep in mind, she’s supposed to be an archeologist, but (And I know, it’s part of the gameplay, but hey) has no problem destroying precious ancient relics and ancient sites or buildings for the sake of getting some ancient artifact and stowing it away in her manor for her own personal pleasures. It’s not like she’s doing any official work or giving it out for science or for museums or even selling those things. She’s just keeping it all stowed in her family manor, manor that could only be owned if she was filthy rich, which she is.

        And… I could go on for quite a bit. But yeah.

        • Chris Lane

          Im pretty sure anyone who’s considered a treasure hunter is “in it for themselves” unless you count the time the government made Indiana Jones get the ark for them. 

          Yeah she does it for the thrills, but look at the people she clashes with. They want these artifacts for ultimate power so they can control the world or destroy it or whatever other reason. And if you remember in her flashback story in Legends, she was with part of an archaeology team doing work (probably for a museum) and they all got murdered by that shadow beastie. Yeah she’s cynical and doesn’t trust many people, and for good reason after all the betrayals and other crazy things she seen.

          Most of the places she goes to most archaeological teams wouldn’t even go near because most real archaeological teams get their equipment from grants, whether it be from a private collector or a museum, and the amount of money they’d need just to transport the equipment to keep most of these dilapitating, trap laden, extremely dangerous places intact is too much. Not to mention the insane animals she has to fight, including DINOSAURS, MUMMIES, SHADOW CREATURES, GODS, FALLEN ANGELS,  and other insane fictional beasties. And about her stowing a lot of these treasures in her mansion. A lot of the stuff she collects have ridiculous powers and I wouldn’t let them get in the wrong hands either.

          • Guest

             Does Ryo Hazuki count?

          • Testsubject909

            Here’s the problem.

            SHE’S the wrong hands! And her old friend turned so called evil. I played through that game twice, listened well to the story and let me tell you… She sounds legit. Her nemesis in that game which happens to be an old partner from a previous archeological dig? Sure, she sounds bitter and has a personal grudge, but you know what? That aside? She sounds to be legit, compared to Lara who, I remind, had dealings with the black market… oh yeah, she then proceeds to beat the crap out of the guy she had dealings with in the past, but between the woman who breaks a legendary weapon that can take down untold evil demons to open up the gates to an ancient sealed up land with a world destroying device just because she wanted to see if her mother from twelve+ years ago is still alive in a land without food or water… Or the woman who wants to take the item for what is left relatively vague but has a far higher chance of actually being made through legal routes as compared to Lara…

            I’d go with the antagonist on this one. And betrayals? You know that antagonist I’m talking about? She became what she is, begrudging and vengeful, because Lara didn’t give two damn to try and help her. Oh sure, she paused in her running for her dear life to look back and give a “Oh I care about you but there’s nothing I can do!” before running. If anything, the flashbacks tends to show that she’s the one who betrays others, not the other way around. In her present day, she deals with a lot of people with double agendas, but you know what? Again, there’s little to give the idea that whoever she’s going against are actually in cahoots with illegal organizations. The one guy she kills for the shotgun for example, he just felt like another treasure hunter like her.

          • Chris Lane

            Let me ask you. If you go to a country like she goes to, lets say peru since she goes there quite often. Where do you expect her to get guns? The local government? Gun stores? Oh theres none of those in that country. So clearly…the black market. In fact many of the places she goes to are extremely dangerous, and the only way to get guns or some of the supplies she needs are….the black market. Or did you not notice the slew of people trying to KILL HER, armed mercenaries, and creatures that would kill her as soon as look at her.   And I’ve played all the Tomb Raider games, Legends multiple times. She didn’t just pause and then run off she literally stayed under water trying to hold that gate up. Because you know they were in an ancient temple that was collapsing around them.

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eo5iTd7X2kE 

            theres the video clip again…yeah holding that heavy gate she REALLY had the opportunity to help her friend. Although with how wide the developers made those bars they both couldve easily slipped through them lol.

            She’s the heir to a fortune amassed by her treasure hunting parents. Treasure hunting by the way doesnt require you to save the buildings because you’re looking for TREASURE, not excavating ancient buildings. So yeah she looks for artifacts, some which she keeps, some which she sells to collectors, and some which she gives to museums. And if my mother had been trapped behind a portal (to which Lara had NO IDEA IT WENT TO THE UNDERWORLD) I’d do whatever I could to find out what happened to her to.

            Also she didn’t kill that guy with the shotgun in anniversary, she kicked him in the face and took it from him. Although those dinos mightve gotten him after. Or the wolves. Or the traps. Or that crazy mummy guy that woke up when she took the piece of the scion. I dunno. Maybe she kills him later (I’m playing through it on the HD Trilogy now)

            I do agree that the older tomb raiders were better because they were just pure treasure hunting games, but to say shes an evil vile woman? Cmon man. Thats just pure unfettered hatred there. And when have Lara’s actions killed others who werent trying to kill her. All that teaches is that people who go into unexplored ancient tombs tend to DIE. If you remember, even in Legends, she wasnt the one who set the shadow creature free, it was already free. Maybe she has caused innocent deaths in the earlier games (I havent played them in ages) but in the three you’re talking about I honestly don’t see this evil woman you’re talking about.  

            Anyway not trying to fight with you dude, we just clearly have different opinions on this matter.

          • Testsubject909

            Yeah, if it wasn’t evident by now I do have a pretty uncontrollable seething hatred for this woman. It’s been a while since I played Anniversary, Legends and Underworld. And I really liked all three of those games, but really hated Lara.

            At the core of it, ignoring all the evils I can see in her, it’s really just how stupid she is at times that annoys me the most. Which then turns into how her stupid actions are easily the equivalent of causing or leading on world destroying evils. Add how she constantly continues to act like the victim despite her own actions being… Gh… It really just turns around in a circle. On my first play through I had no opinion of Lara, as I played I noticed her stupidity at times, then noticed some of her hypocrisy, then started applying real world logic in it, then started to question the motives of everyone involved, replayed it with knowledge of later events and it just paints her as being so freakingly disgusting…

            Ugh… Sorry… Sorry, rampaging here…

            Ignoring Lara Croft, it’s both the writing, the sequences of event and the portrayal of the character that’s just a lot of misses.

            And yes, I do agree with you for the whole event with her old friend and whatnot but… what prevented her from then getting people to help her search for survivors or to see if she was alive or return with the army?

            She was on an official expedition… She could’ve gotten the authorities involved… I still don’t piece together why she ultimately just left her friend there, not even bother to check for a corpse to bring back to her family for a proper burial… And don’t give me a “Oh but there were unspeakable dark evil creatures” again, authorities, reinforcement, army, mercenaries.

            It’s just weird. The more I play Tomb Raider games, the more I rethink the stories, the more I return to the older Tomb Raider games, the more I detest current Lara Croft and the more I view her as just this great bane to mankind.

            Now, on another note. I CAN see where you’re coming from. I can see how people can see Lara as an unfortunate victim, a good girl and blah blah blah. But you cannot say you Can’t see how she’s evil, not unless you’re actively unwilling to attempt to do so.

            Try it, try to just shove all your current opinions on Lara aside, look back on all the story element, plot points, character progression points, many of her actions. All the information and all the material to depict her as a great evil is just there, blatantly there for anyone to pick up and think about…

            On a side note. I’ve said more then too much on it by now. So this is going to be my last argument and commentary on Lara Croft’s character here. I’ll shove her character out of my mind and focus on the only thing I enjoy from Tomb Raider games.

            Everything else… (Gameplay, music, presentation.)

          • Testsubject909

            PS. It just kind of occurred to me.

            Why would she need to go to any of those places? She’s set. She’s rich. Billionaire style rich. She’s got a mansion, she can hire tech geeks and give them the latest of equipment, can buy her own yacht and abandon it in the ocean without caring about it, can travel to any places in the world, fund her own expeditions with a snap of a finger, rebuild her family mansion and refurnish it which hints further that she’s just balls gratingly rich.

            Why would she need to go do all that hunting for treasures? Why do absolutely everything in your power, including opening up sealed doors that contain world destroying weapons, just to get an item that she later then destroys or gets rid of despite how their power are clearly capable of aiding the world and take down unspeakable evils? Why? So much why? It just screams selfish, bored and just stupidly selfish…

            *rubs forehead, bangs head on wall, tries to clear away thoughts*

            I’m going to move to a different article… I need to stop thinking about this.

          • Chris Lane

            Why does Batman keep letting the villians who kill hundreds of people every year live? I dunno. He just does. Same goes for Lara I guess lls.

        • puchinri

          Honestly, doing that for the sake of potentially saving her mom doesn’t make her sound monstrous. She just sounds hopeful yet desperate. It doesn’t mean she’d be free of blame or anything, but she’s not being purely selfish (since she’s doing it out of a love to actually save someone who loved her – as compared to someone like, DCnU’s Mr. Freeze).

          Also, look at archaeologists in pop culture. How many are actually professional? I don’t get why people like Indiana Jones. He’s not only terrible at his job, he is the most selfish, manipulative and racist, presumptuous bastard ever. He sounds worse than Lara does to me. (Also, not all museums and such are free of evils either! Just look at Britain!)

          I’ll have to play the first two games again and these later two before I actually pass any judgement – or let her free of any – but for now, she’s only “meh” in the evil and unprofessional scale to me.

          • Testsubject909

            Play underworld, you’ll see just how pointless it is.

            Plus keep in mind I had just finished Legend after having finished Anniversary the year prior before playing Underworld, so I still had her previous actions in the game fresh in my mind when stepping into this.

            Really, I didn’t care about her whole actions, I just found it completely stupid.

            “Oh! Maybe my mom, who disappeared a dozen+ years ago, is alive in the middle of an underground sealed cavern with no food and water. I know there’s some unspeakable world destroying evil, I know because the evil demon who wants me to use the ancient artifact that I have hopes I open up the doors to these things, and I could just easily keep the artifact away and beat her to keep the world safe, but you know what? My mommy might still be alive after all these years of starvation and dehydration! I just gotta open up the doomsday weapon to know! I just gotta!”

            No fooling me there. No fooling anyone with a brain.

    • mirumu

      Anniversary, Legends and Underworld? Most Tomb Raider fans I know don’t even consider those games canon. The series was at it’s best in the first two games.

      • Testsubject909

        Definitely…

        At least back then. Lara didn’t have a story to wreck her, she was just some spicy flirtatious southern gal type woman who went through ancient ruins and made a living as possibly an archeologist.

        The latest three tomb raider games though? They added a lot of story and character development, but at the same time made Lara into the freaking monster I loathe…

        Plus she’s only average hot by today’s standard which really annoys me when a lot of gamers with their nostalgia goggles on keep spouting about how she’s one of the hottest women in gaming…

      • Testsubject909

        PS. At least I didn’t mention that angel of darkness game…

    • puchinri

      I kind of like jerkass, monstrous protagonists – especially ones that are selfish, even unabashedly so – but it has to be handled very, very well. And surprisingly, not a lot of people can do that. Sadly. I may give those games a try just to see what I think about them.

      But really, to me, the only difference in what you said sounds like Lara’s greed threatens the world where Drake’s does not? Because they both sound greedy and selfish, only the scale of how it affects things sounds different. (In which case, they’re both monsters, just one manages not to go after goals that are “too lofty”.)

      • Guest

         I liked how they handled Asura. Much better than that dick Kratos…

      • Testsubject909

        Oh no no, to me the big difference is.

        Drake is honest about his intentions.

        Lara? She’s trying to veil her selfish desires under some sort of idea of nobility and whatnot. She’s actively trying to fool the player into her side. At least with Drake, I know he’s just in it for his own neck, for the cash or for the bedding the woman.

        With Lara? It’s like you’re actively playing with someone trying to mislead you or someone who you know is an evil bastard trying to make you sympathize with them.

        I like the jerkass monstrous protagonists at times myself. But only when they’re honest about being jerkass monstrous protagonists. Or even just relunctantly so. Lara’s neither. She’s a deceitful type that annoys me because it seems she’s delusional about her being the victim or the good guy when it’s quite the other way around. It’s irritating.

      • Solomon_Kano

        Indeed, that can be nice when handled well. It’s a pity that I haven’t played a game that’s handled it well yet. I often find that, if done right, protagonists outside of the usual “do-gooder” mold are more interesting for me.

        Nate’s greed >>>

        • puchinri

          Yeah, off the top of my head, I can’t think of any video game portagonists like that. But yeah, definitely protagonists that are more questionable are also a ton of fun. (Or even better, someone who is a pretty fair character, but doesn’t go out of their way to be a goody-goody.)

          • Solomon_Kano

            Yea. It’s a pity that the closest we get to questionable protags these days are usually Mass Effect sorta deals where you decide your characters motivations. That’s no fun for me. I want somebody to write an engaging protagonist who isn’t set upon saving the world, saving Suzie, saving the Queen, and so on. Give me moral gray areas!

            edit: I’ve been saying “it’s a pity a lot” recently. Now I feel like I’m turning into a sit-com character and it’s meant to be my catchphrase. So weird…

      • malek86

        Sometimes I like jerkass protagonists too, but it has to be very specifically handled.

        Take Kain in Blood Omen. He’s a jerk all around, has no qualms killing others, doesn’t show any remorse, treats everyone as inferior to him, etc. However, we still see semblances of humanity left in him, and sometimes he would spew out some moral conjecture. His character remains an uncertainty for much of the game, and seems to evolve slowly.

        Then, very much later, almost near the end, when talking about how the vampire hunters are handling their crusade, he says:

        “I make no pretense to justify my killing. Yet these vampire hunters would cloak their bloodlust beneath a veil of righteousness. Hypocrites!”

        At this point we know we are playing as a character who thinks of murder as something that should be done for yourself and not for some higher cause. He didn’t even have a reason for killing everyone, nor does he enjoy it, he just does it because it’s kind of what he does now. And he despises anyone who kills for a reason. That’s when you understand it all makes sense, that you’re really playing as a truly bad-above-all guy, something even worse then neutral evil. And this revelation made me root for him despite everything. Because in the end, it’s all about me and I know it.

        The Soul Reaver games eventually made him more “noble” in scope, but the first Kain was pretty much as evil as it can get, if you interpret it like I did.

        • mirumu

          I think it’s interesting to note too that Amy Hennig, who assisted with the writing on Blood Omen, before going on to Soul Reaver went on to become head writer for the Uncharted series.

          While Drake is of course a very different character to Kain, I think the quality writing still comes through and is reflected in people’s reaction to the character and series.

          • malek86

            Yes, although she was also the one who eventually made Kain have more of a higher goal, which I felt was something of a copout from his initial character.

            Kain, who had shown nothing but disdain for Nosgoth and did everything for his own good, eventually reveals that he has actually been doing everything in his power to save Nosgoth, even at his own great risk. We could say Kain was originally a fledgling and he got wiser in the thousand years between BO1 and SR1, but it still feels like too big a change. It also makes him a “good guy” again, where the original Kain was cool exactly because he was the bad guy and was only the main character because everyone else was even worse.

            And not in an Overlord way, where you’re evil but you are kinda expected to be evil and you have a bunch of servants liking you and stuff. Kain was alone in his selfishness, and eventually reveled in that thought. An interesting character, and one which hasn’t been tried again often in games. Bad protagonists today are almost always either played for laughs, or given some kind of templar-like goal that turns out to make them somewhat good in the end.

          • mirumu

            I agree it was a cop out, but I suspect Hennig developed Kain that way simply because the temptation to reuse such an interesting character was too great. I’m sure Crystal Dyanmics management would have wanted it. It would have been very difficult to fit him back in as he was. I’d also argue that despite this even at it’s worst Soul Reaver is still better written than the majority of games.

          • malek86

            @mirumu:disqus yeah, I guess. Although Silicon Knights was technically supposed to have started working on a sequel to Blood Omen, and we can only imagine what would have happened in there. We know it wouldn’t have had Raziel and the Hylden and all that stuff, since they were created from a different game. Chances are it wouldn’t have used Kain though, because like you said, it’s not like you could have done much more with him.

            The only thing that has been confirmed by Dyack, is that Vorador was supposed to be in it. Someone has speculated that Eternal Darkness was eventually created from this concept when they lost the rights to the series.

        • http://wiredjungle.wordpress.com/ DrakosAmatras

          Now you’re making me wanna get those game from GOG-Hey! Wallet! Come back here!

          • malek86

            Tough luck there. They were supposed to have Blood Omen two months ago, but then something happened, presumably legal issues, and they uploaded Soul Reaver instead. We still don’t have the game today.

  • revenent hell

    Gameplay/mechanic aside im actually not a fan of this “Tomb Raider”…..Shes just not “pretty” to me. Back in time graphics where different because of system limitations so I think even for being old they did alot better at making her pretty than this gen did. When I first saw her face I actually thought thay changed tomb raider to a “pretty guy”.
     
     

    • Guest

       *deskpalm*

      • revenent hell

         The first image I saw of her/him was the conceptual render but it only showed the face, wich to me is fairly ugly for a girl and fairly pretty for a guy, and I had to click on it to see the full image.

        • Solomon_Kano

          Then… treat her like a pretty guy and be done with it?

    • MrRobbyM

      *insert 360degrees-and-walk-away joke here*

  • DS23

    I think it’s pretty funny how Tomb Raider devs are stuck with Uncharted comparisons when everyone’s initial impression of Uncharted were that it’s Tomb Raider with a dude. Of course folks back on the day kind of regarded Lara as a female Indiana Jones, so Uncharted was basically coming full circle kind of? I ‘unno. And yeah Lara is getting Other M’d like mad in this game, which is at least the second or third ‘origin’ story they’ve told with this franchise. 

    • puchinri

      Yeah, the one thing that’s turning me away the most is how bad the Other M’ing here is. I don’t care if it looks like Uncharted, because that’s not really a bad thing (and yeah, Uncharted was called TR with a dude). I just can’t understand why it’s necessary that Lara has to be weak to be a badass or at resourceful.

  • Guest

    What if Drake shows up at the end? 

    “Hey, I hear you like tombs…”

    *gets shot*

    • MrRobbyM

      Oh god, the Drake x Lara stuff that will soon come after release…

      • British_Otaku

        Too late.

        http://seashell093.deviantart.com/art/Nathan-Drake-Lara-Croft-137915269

        But yes, there is more to come when it goes from “What’s Tomb Raider, that kinda looks like Indiana Jones” to “What’s Uncharted, that kinda looks like Tomb Raider” to “What’s Tomb Raider, that kinda looks like Uncharted” and everything comes full circle.

        • Solomon_Kano

          Not that I’d care for ant Drake x Lara stuff, that would actually look better if they redid it with the new Lara. Promo images from Tomb Raider have a similar look to that Uncharted shot, after all.

          .
          .
          .

          Ahem.

    • amagidyne

       ”So I put a tomb in your car so you can raid while you drive”?

  • Solomon_Kano

    The old Tomb Raider was similar to Uncharted. Tomb Raider was the first thing that came to mind when I first played Uncharted, actually. This reboot? Nah. Apart from the initial concept behind what Nate and Lara each do, not so much.

  • puchinri

    Ugh. I’m really grossed out for what the team is trying to do with the character. Rosenburg especially is focusing way too hard on her gender. Being similar to Uncharted wouldn’t be bad at all, but the treatment of Lara herself is terrible.

    No, rape as a tool is not okay. And it’s terribly tired, old and disgusting. So is trying to make female characters weak so we can all want to protect them. I’ll relate better to a strong character (mentally and emotionally strong) that has weak moments than I will a forcibly weak character.

    Their handling of Lara sounds incredibly lazy, and more like the flipside of the sexism that they’re trying to escape. If you take out the sexualization and objectification in her outfit and just add it to everything else, you’ve only made things worse. Why is that so hard to see? TTATT

    I’m ready for another reboot. Already. vuv / ;u;

    • Solomon_Kano

      Rape? Oh boy. I never heard about that. I was pretty excited about where they were going with this reboot story-wise, but that’s a pretty weak developmental tool. How the hell did I miss that?

      • puchinri

        Yeah. The last trailer did show someone trying to molest her, but the interview specifically mentioned attempted rape, so I’m guessing it gets worse (and the scary thing is, I don’t know if they meant just Lara, or her friend as well – doesn’t help that the female friend is the one that’s kidnapped and held hostage and looking in a very “bad” situation).

        I would have largely missed it too if not for mirumu. The molestation was already bad enough, but that he said that (and that it could happen more in the game) is highly disconcerting and disgusting.

        • malek86

          “Yeah. The last trailer did show someone trying to molest her, but the interview specifically mentioned attempted rape, so I’m guessing it gets worse”

          That was a pretty obvious guess. When I saw the scene, I just knew what they were trying to do. Kind of a copout, I guess. It’s like they are doing their best at treating Lara in the worst possible way. I get the feeling after just a few minutes I’ll have to strain my suspension of disbelief really hard to feel any attachment to her.

          • puchinri

            From the beginning, it all felt a little odd. That moment in the trailer was kind of where I felt the line drawn for myself, but then the interview just made it worse. I’m wondering how they’re going to make her seem at all human at this point. Then again, the interview alone makes me feel like he contradicted himself, so maybe they’re just a terribly confused lot.

        • Solomon_Kano

          Yea, that’s not cool at all. While I do like when games try to tackle touchy real-world issues, there are just some things that are NEVER in good taste. Hell, rape isn’t in taste at all. Much less as a developmental tool for one of the few relevant female characters in gaming — even if gaming was full of females that would be terrible, but with how it actually is? Even worse.

          I was liking that Crystal Dynamics was trying to go for a more “human” Lara in this reboot but, if anything, rape is the opposite of humanizing development. Making Lara weak so we see how she becomes the strong Tomb Raider of games past? Ok, sure. Using rape to tell that story? That damn well have better been a poor insinuation on his part, otherwise I’ll be skipping this game.

          I’ve seen neither the latest trailer nor that interview, but I’ll have to check for them now. Considering how much I was looking forward to this reboot, that’s a really disappointing development.

          • puchinri

            Yeah, at times, some games can handle all sorts of issue pretty darn weel (and even quite brilliantly), but there are some things it’s best not to touch; or just not touch as much as possible. Rape is not in taste at all, I agree. And it’s very disappointing that they’re using it as a tool like that, and that’s a better point too.

            And agreed, from the way he frames it to how it looked in the trailer (and whatever else may be left), it was the very opposite of humanizing. I’m really just disappointed by it all. Early on, I was giving the game some benefit of the doubt. Now, I just hope that someone points out the issues loud and clear and they can fix something before it’s too late.

            Yeah, the trailer I saw was the E3 one, and the interview is recent too. It’s easy to find (and mirumu says how to find it below). It left a bad taste in my mouth, and I’m quite disappointed as well. I wasn’t excited before, but I thought some of this might be refreshing at least. (Apparently not.)

          • SirRichard

            It’s probably going to end up too late to change things. But, things are changing; that Hitman Absolution trailer a while back, the one with the nuns? People raised hell over it, to the point that the developers apologised. The audience is beginning to change, seemingly for the better.

            So who knows? If it’s as bad as we dread, people are likely to raise hell again, and Crystal Dynamics will hopefully listen and change itself accordingly.

            I also find it amusing that both Hitman and Tomb Raider are Eidos properties. Under different developers, I know, but it’s an amusing (and worrying, perhaps) link.

          • malek86

            @SirRichard:disqus I still think people made too much of a fuss for the Hitman trailer. It may have been just supposed to be a sort of extreme thing, like a Tarantino movie. This new “realistic” (?) Lara deal though, it’s appearing as a little worse, because they seem to be actively focusing the whole game on it, and not in a satire/extreme way. At least we know Hitman won’t just be all about killing sexy nuns and whatnot.

          • Solomon_Kano

            Unfortunately, I don’t see them fixing this. The fact that it made it into the game in the first place ensures that they’re too ignorant of the issue to see any need to “fix” it.

            At the very least, I hope someone calls them out and they have some form of sensible response. It would mean little, but an apology would be a good start. It implicates them poorly, it implicates the gaming populace poorly, and it just implicates the modern mindset poorly. To let this go unnoticed would be terrible as it would say much more than what most games do — and not in a positive manner.

        • Solomon_Kano

          Just read.

          > And then, Rosenberg says, those scavengers will try to rape her.

          > “She is literally turned into a cornered animal,” Rosenberg said.

          *sigh* On the off chance that this was simply really poor terming on his part… in what situation would those sentences ever sound good in the same vicinity? Rape alone is bad, but following that with referring to her as a “cornered animal”? What kind of dehumanizing bullshot is that?

          I’m thoroughly disappointed as Lara’s character was what was selling me on this reboot, being that I never could muster up the interest to even attempt to play the prior Tomb Raiders. Guess it looks like this is a series I’ll avoid in any form now.

          • mirumu

            The thing that surprised me was that even when speaking on less controversial topics he still managed to be offensive. I mean this was Rosenberg’s very first quote in the interview:

            “When people play Lara, they don’t really project themselves into the character,”  “They’re more like ‘I want to protect her.’ There’s this sort of dynamic of ‘I’m going to this adventure with her and trying to protect her.’”

            It all just kept getting worse the more I read. I really don’t think Crystal Dynamics have any idea of what they’re doing with this series.

          • Solomon_Kano

            *facepalm*

            It’s 2012, isn’t it? I don’t know how he could’ve said that, in an interview no less, and not seen the problem in those statements.

            Crystal Dynamics had a lot going for them here yet, slowly but surely, they’re just souring the pot. Or rather, after that interview and trailer, quickly. It went from a slow burn to spontaneous combustion. Incredible.

          • amagidyne

            Wow. Okay, this is not going to end well.

          • puchinri

            Makes you wonder, doesn’t it? The fact that they’re trying to use rape as a tool, and he can’t even word things properly when framed around it is incredibly telling to me.

            That’s pretty much how I’m feeling about everything too.

    • Setsuryuu

      I kinda think you’re all oversimplifying the matter… But that’s probably because my personality naturally makes me over-complicate anything. lol My way of thinking is way too differently from you all for me to believe that I can make any opposing point to go across here, but let’s try.

      Before all it’s nice to point out I saw E3 trailer without paying much
      attention and not the interview (and there’s probably more things I missed) but above all it’s hard to comment on a game I haven’t played yet. This is just  the impressions I got with the much I saw.

      I do like a lot how it seems (to my eyes) they are treating Lara in here. In
      the way she seems weaker than the hardened badass of usual since she is younger and all. But above that I guess it’s also a story about how she hardened up to become that “monster” that TestSubject says bellow. And they chose the old trope of “traumatic experience” for that.

      I don’t get @mirumu:disqus  complaint down then. It’s to be expected to
      a writer to create ways of making a connection with chars and viewers. Maybe it would be less offensive if he was trying to create an “I want to
      protect” situation with a male lead? But in my opinion that would be a
      sexist view anyway, saying “it’s okay to want to protect boys but offensive to want to protect girls” (a distinction based only in gender). I know somewhere, someone might believe in a “boy must protect girl” stereotype but unless openly stated I’d rather not believe it is being applied. If you read a story about anyone, any gender, unjustly suffering through hell it’s easy to feel an “I want to protect him/her” feeling. Or to help, or just to see the person surpass this, anything similar.

      Maybe the choice of words implies that stereotype, but again, not being openly stated, I rather give the benefit of the doubt. Many times I said stupid things that could be misinterpreted against my ingrained beliefs just as a matter of my poor speech, I can’t judge others that easily! xP

      And the rape thing… Violence is horrible. Either a punch or a verbal abuse.
      But it’s quite acceptable, maybe even expected, stuff like that in media.
      People don’t care or even praise such displays of head chopping bloody
      massacres. But it’s not the same with sexual violence… It’s much more easier to get people to feel disgusted with even the single hint that maybe, perhaps, that can happen.

      And yes, to induce feelings of disgust is also a thing to be aimed by writers
      sometimes. If they want to create a “no-man’s land” environment in
      the island as the “traumatic experience” and surviving in it as the way to harden up Lara (and they want, of course, because that way they have a game lol) to use “rape as a tool” that makes sense. Not that I think they should! Since it’s so easy to create disgust in that way it becomes a cheap resource but there’s also the addition that apparently it happens in the first time Lara kills someone (so they also used as a justification to speed up any hesitation towards killing that young and inexperienced Lara might still have so later the player can go on murder sprees in the island and set people on fire with bows…).  

      Sure they could have it in other way, like the guy trying to kill her for some
      reason and she reacting, but putting “worst then death” situations increases the feel of the trauma and the explanation of why she turns out so cold in the future, so they opt for that cheap-yet-easy-to-understand resource.

      Yeah, it might be sexist because it’s hard to do that “mirror the situation”
      thing I did before. It’s hard to imagine someone wanting to make the character development of “young man turning into badass” by murdering the woman trying to rape him; even though it’d make sense the same way as the girl one (it’s both self-defense cases) that’s still a lot of prejudice when it comes to men being raped, most people might not even think that is “possible” because of unwarranted expectations about the “man’s role” (but that is possible and cases like that have even castration risk).  

      I’m just saying that to show how deep complex we can get if we keep worrying about such issues. I think it’s important to bring awareness to discrimination towards women and I like the idea of games being more adult and complex and thought-inducing, but I reckon the importance of more light-hearted experiences as fun stress-relievers without any intention of discussing such matters (even if, having men, women… humans in it, it could inevitably set a foot in some touchy areas). I guess this Tomb Raider’s reboot is the latter so it’s to be expected some deficiencies in the area of the former.

      So yeah, as @vietfabulouz:disqus said, let’s keep the open mind; at least until they release it and we learn for sure where they are heading with all this.

      And sorry about the huge text!! lol (is that not the first time I disagree with you when it comes to “sexism” themes? If so, sorry for being so annoying too >_<)

      • mirumu

        If the protection comment was the worst thing Rosenberg said I’d likely have chalked it up to a poor choice of words, but it wasn’t.

        How many interviews talk about the player wanting to protect Drake? Chris Redfield? Link? I’d honestly be amazed if you can find a single one.

        People like to win or beat games which requires protecting your character in the most basic sense. It’s a completely redundant thing to say in a normal context. The reason he highlighted and made a big deal of it is obviously because he felt it was something unique to this Tomb Raider game.

        Edit: Had to leave in a hurry before so couldn’t finish my comment.

        I agree that there’s a place for light-hearted experiences as fun stress-relievers as you put it, but rape isn’t really something you’d expect to find in that sort of game.

        I’m not saying there isn’t a place for more extreme content, or exploring sensitive issues in games in a mature context. Honestly I feel quite the opposite. But even if we assume the very best of Crystal Dynamics here, Tomb Raider will never be such a game.

        • Setsuryuu

          I actually agree with you! xD But in a more lighthearted manner I see it as a way of pointing out “we had more action before” (let me be clear, I only played Tomb Raider when I was a kid and disliked, but I heard enough to think is common sense of fans that it had little focus on story and more on action) but now they have this story addition, and it is only story that allows you to connect with the character not the action.

          And the story here (I think, I haven’t played it) seems about turning a normal girl into a hardened badass through a traumatic experience, to make her suffer but survive really unfair things because of mere accident and change her view and way of acting throughout the world. If they manage to make you want to protect her it might also make you understand and accept she going out killing everyone; it’s them on her and you want to protect her. I’m skeptic they can pull it off lol but it’s a nice ambition to aim such connection with the player.

          I haven’t played uncharted, but isn’t the game about a dude (archeologist?) living adventures to try to get money? And Chris, the same way as Jill, were professionals, police officers, not a normal girl (I guess she is? I’m not sure of her pre-reboot background); Chris and Jill are expected to protect the others. Sure, they’re in a zombie outbreak, but their background makes you think “if someone can handle that, it’s people like them”.

          If the main was a 20-somethings random college student man I’d think “wow, he really has NO chance to survive in that, but if I can play as him I want to protect him and make him survive”. That’d be actually a cool idea of a game, maybe someone has made something like that before (or not, so they are at fault for that xP), I just can’t remember. If people thinks it’s not possible to create such empathy with a male lead and he has to be an awesome badass from the start for people to care about him is also a terrible thing, laying on the other side of this coin that you suggests. And I’d rather not cash that without guarantees of that purchase.

          And Link is just too surreal. lol Sure, you can see sexism in him going to save the princess and all, but do you really want to that with HIM? xP

          As I said the way he phrased leaves opening to the interpreation, but since looking for another point of view it can be toned down, I’d rather give him the benefit of the doubt. Actually no, I mean “the way you said that he said” since I don’t know where this interview is and I haven’t seen it yet too… (ahahahah, I know, all that talk and I did not that yet! XD)

          • mirumu

            I think you’re exactly right about what they’re aiming for, but the way they’re doing it is exploitative and, to me at least, amateurish. Those male characters I mentioned were picked mostly at random, but you could insert almost any action game protagonist there. My point was more that male characters in action titles are put in dangerous situations all the time, but you don’t see anyone talk of wanting to protect them, or saying that players don’t project themselves onto those characters. If anything in the case of Silent Hill’s Harry Mason his very human limitations were seen as a way players could relate to the character.

            I’d definitely suggest reading that interview with Ron Rosenberg if you can, it’s on Kotaku. You may get something completely different out of it, but it is an interesting insight into the development of this game if nothing else.

          • Setsuryuu

             If I brought awareness to what they’re aiming for I’m happy! xD I don’t doubt they’re doing/will do it wrong. I guess it’s hard thing for even the best to get right, so let’s say I applaud their boldness for trying. And I’ll sigh heavier than heavy if, when it’s released, it’s yet another disappointment. =/

            In Silent Hill, Harry Mason was also going out to protect someone else, there was this feeling of self-sacrifice, “only Sheryl matters”. But I noticed you were just picking random! I don’t deny either that is much, much harder to have male characters made with that purpose (hence why I started saying I agree with you). I guess I just said all that to express that I rather think they were just written with a different purpose because the different purpose itself was best to the intentions of each game; and not because males are limited to never ever take such kinds of roles! Grrr… I hate limitations! xP

            Rosenberg interview on Kotaku! Okay… *googles it, finds this http://www.kotaku.com.au/2012/06/youll-want-to-protect-the-new-less-curvy-lara-croft/ and reads it*

            “You might start to root for her the way you wouldn’t for a male character.”

            Wow, no one can defend that claim, he is just imposing the limitation I just complained! xD But the rape part wasn’t quoted (sic)? x_x It overlaps with the cornered animal part, implying one is related to the other as if it is a main gameplay feature to convey the “cornered animal, fight or die” feel, but was that how he said or just weird Kotaku editing? Maybe it’s just a minor portion of the things that happen to raise this feel but Kotaku thought “oh my, shocking, unexpected, got to call my readers attention, make polemic let’s insinuate”. >__< That sorta looked more like his views on the game than what the game is about thought, like a fan talking…

            Can I take it even less seriously again because it was on Kotaku? XD USA, Australia, whatever… I can't take that site too seriously since the Brazil's crew posted a big editorial about how "we are passionate about games and not a cookie-cutter group that just states the facts without an input of our feelings/opinions about it, so we don't care if you readers dislike or style and think we should be less biased because we are a blog and blogs should be biased". ._____. (It used to be the sole game site in my mother tongue I followed, but now I'm only with Siliconera and flip the table of my country).
            You start to root for her in a way that you might not root for a male character.
            You start to root for her in a way that you might not root for a male character.
            You start to root for her in a way that you might not root for a male character.
            You start to root for her in a way that you might not root for a male character.

          • mirumu

            Heh, it’s fine by me if you don’t take Kotaku seriously. It wasn’t a bad site early on back in the invite-only days, but today I feel exactly the same way as you about that place. I don’t know why developers even bother to give them interviews anymore. That said, Rosenberg’s quotes do appear to speak for themselves.

      • SirRichard

        Thing is, would the guy have mentioned anything about wanting to protect the character if they were male? I honestly don’t think they would, and neither would they bring up the sex of the character or how the player is “kind of their helper”. Guy also makes the creepy comment of “building her up [and then] breaking her down again”, to say nothing of the mention of rape (it’s going to be handled poorly, if this guy is any indication) followed immediately by “She’s a cornered animal”. He talks of what’s “enticing” to him, and that reflects poorly in the context of the game.

        There’s “poorly worded” and “poor choice of words”, and then there’s repeatedly doing that over the course of an interview with no apparent qualms. It simply does not bode well, especially not with the footage we’ve seen and the focus on beating the crap out of Lara (and there is a focus, a rather unnerving focus). The implication that she needs “a helper” is a can of worms on its own, I’d imagine.

        You talk about them aiming to disgust, but it’s clear that they’re not aiming for that. They’re aiming to make her sympathetic to you, they’re aiming for that Ico feeling of protecting the girl, only how they’re handling it is blurring that considerably and it can be easily construed as something more malicious and creepy. That it’s creating feelings of disgust towards the game as a whole and the developer before it’s even out isn’t a good sign, mate.

        There’s having an open mind about something and then there’s being wilfully blind to glaring issues it has, you know? I feel that you’re too willing to give them the benefit of the doubt on this, mate, sometimes you don’t need to play something to be able to see problems.

        • Setsuryuu

          Yeah, I saw not the interview, but you make it sound worst. …At least I raised a(n uncalled for) debate? lol I can’t comment more on what I haven’t saw if it was so beyond just one poor commentary…

          About the disgust, I meant that is one emotion that would make sense to want to evoke exactly to make a char sympathetic to you (I’m not even talking of the game now after all that, I’m keeping it general here to better cross my point lol). I meant that if one thinks the world around a virtuous, innocent (as not deserving the mistreats he will receive, not as in “naive) character is completely deranged, you can sympathize with any sort of action the char takes to survive, even ones that otherwise would be unacceptable (murder).

          If they’re doing it wrong… They are doing it wrong! lol It’s a fault of the execution. Not exactly of the principle. A lack of sensibility in a clearly sensible line of plot. That was my point since I don’t think we can judge the actual before it is released, all arguments now are bound by an “it seems” and not an “it is”.

          If they’re marketing bad, giving danger signs about how they will handle it bad… It’s a fault of the marketing. Or this interview guy maybe, the way you said. lol I know both are related to each other, being a spokesman of it and all, but maybe the game can treat it well, it wasn’t made just by him or any “one guy”. So if marketing sucks at least don’t make pre-orders nor buy it until you check some review later to see if it is as bad as it seemed, that would be open minded enough. You wouldn’t need to ignore this glaring signs just don’t consider them as final because even being as bad as you made it look, it’s still an interview and short trailers about a game of probably tons of hours and still some good time to be released.

          Well, I’m also just trying to raise some debate-provoking thoughts here. Be it my like of info about it or not, I was saying what I disagreed with what I read here. I don’t want to tell you what to do or not to do but to explain my point I got really close to that so I’m sorry.

          • SirRichard

            No, no, it’s good to open a debate on things, I hope I wasn’t scaring you away from that! Always good to debate things, you shouldn’t apologise for that!

            I’m seeing what you mean about misleading impressions, but it isn’t just this one interview, really, it’s also a good deal of the footage and trailers we’ve seen so far. It could be all mishandled, but that’s a spectacular degree of mishandling your game’s marketing, especially in this day and age where a developer can more easily hear the opinions of their audience.

            And while it is a while off, the developers don’t seem intent on changing anything about it, if that interview and the recent E3 demo are any indication. And that wasn’t just any spokesperson either, that interview was with an executive producer on the game, he’s high up there. Crystal Dynamics seem proudly intent on staying the course with Tomb Raider, which isn’t very promising.

            Yeah, we can wait until it’s out to judge, but it’s not looking good all the same. 

          • Setsuryuu

            Yeah, as I just replied to mirumu bellow (man, you wouldn’t believe it, but I’m actually trying to keep my replies shorter! xD) it really might look terrible so far, but is that so unexpected? They took upon their shoulders the responsability of dealing with a very dark-toned setting (in a very famous franchise to boot :O), something that most people naturally suck at it not because they’re terrible professionals, but because dark themed stories are naturally complicated, even when dealt in a more superficial way like I have the impression it will be Tomb Raider’s case.

            Dark themed stories have that something about leaning too easily on banalizing heavy subjects (by making less of it) or the opposite, to seemingly praise, estimulate or glorify those atrocities. And if you think really hard you’ll notice no one actually agrees where the middle term of balance and cathartic thought-provoking experience (or just fun) lies; it’s just a matter of remember people trying to “ban games for inducing to violence”.

            Do I think that’s a terrible idea? How could I! I think if no one tries and fails, no one will try and get it right as well… I’m quite the advocator of news and audacity, I say let them failed miserably at convey their intentions (now that we at least agreed that at intent they might not be jerks! lol), I praise them for boldly trying anyway.

          • puchinri

            Just to reply to your below comment, I don’t think anyone should expect bad handling. And they shouldn’t let us expect as much. Also, if they’re going to be handling and dealing with matters like that, maybe they should think harder about it before trying to tackle it.

            They wanted to make the game dark, and it’s fine if it’s their choice; but that doesn’t mean they don’t escape criticism or responsibility for that option. I don’t think most people suck at handling a darker theme, setting or atmosphere, but a lot of people are lazy about it. It’s like “maturity.” A lot of people try to make mature mean violence, harsh language and overt sexuality; but many of the non-lazy people will tackle maturity as dealing with strong issues and topics. If you decide you want to take on a darker theme and use mature issues, but don’t do the research, that makes you unprofessional and lazy. And that is the case here.

            Honestly, I can’t praise them for what they’re doing. Good on them for trying to take out the immediate sexuality (clothing and figure), but they willing added a lot of questionable elements, and I can’t applaud that. People don’t get praise for throwing in rape to try and get an emotion out of people and make them want to protect a character. Nor will I praise them for “being bold enough” to make something extreme and use a female character in a stereotypical manner to evoke more protect-y feels from us. They’re going to have to be smart and considerate if they want my praise. As it is now, they’re just going with the status quo.

          • Setsuryuu

            Well, if you’re buying the game you shouldn’t expect. I guess, thinking about my last huge comment to you, indeed I am being more an advocate of stories touching on dark and gritty themes in general than just this one game! (but it happens to fall in that category) And quite the Devil’s Advocate, in multiple meanings of the expression! XD

            So I’m not exactly defending the game or that Rosenberg by what they are themselves, I’m defending the tools and I’m praising the people that takes the risk to use it even when I myself think it’s a very hard thing to do well.

            Yes, let’s forget the game, because this is as much about the game as it is not! xD You criticized the tools (not only the “rape” but the choice of characterization too) and I just showed possible scenarios to how it could be not a thing to censor in a way it seems I’m defending the game, but I’m not saying they can’t do it wrong. I guess this is the 10%. If they do it wrong keep the critics, but do it on the person and not the tools. It’s not bad to use all things they did that you hated, not the things (rape, “protect”, Lara starting as weak, etc) but the HOW. Now maybe this wraps around all I said already in a way my point goes across.

            My praise goes for attempt, something that to me the status quo don’t even have, but it will be alongside my repulse if it gets played out wrong. Maybe they’re “being lazy” with the story elements, yeah, they surely look a bit like that showing us a cheap moment here and there. We’ll see.

      • puchinri

        I appreciate you bringing up an alternative perspective and being curteous about it~. If you feel differently that’s fine, and if you don’t see the problems, well, that’s not really fine per se, but sadly they do exist and we can only acknowledge and discuss them and hope they’ll be recognized more.

        Even if I tried to simplify everything I’ve seen, it does not come out looking good.

        My base problem with the treatment of Lara, is why does a character have to start off weak(er) at all? Especially a fairly iconic female character. It’s not just that she isn’t as physically stong and capable, but she’s incredibly weak all around, and that’s problematic. And SirRichard brings up the point of having to protct her. No matter what, the trailer and even Rosenberg’s words have put into perspective that they’re focusing on her gender incredibly hard, and they’re focusing on it the wrong way (stereotypes of women being weak, needing to overcome typical lady trauma of being raped, etc).

        The problem with the protecting thing is covered by SirRichard well too. The problem is that he made this female character weak with the intent of making us want to protect her. He’s kind of implying with everything he said that we can only connect to her that way, and what does that say if we’re only supposed to connect to this female character because/when she’s weak? 

        Hehe, his wording was terrible all around. But that he words everything like that shows me well enough where he’s coming from, and it’s less the words that are the problem in the end and indeed where his mentality is at. His words will always be a problem because he has a problematic mentality.

        The problem with using sexual violence is how cheap it is and how it cheapens sexual problems on a whole (violence, rape and molestation in general, sexualization). Sure, we know they’re dastardly because of that, but using such an extreme thing to evoke extreme emotions and not really saying anything with it is just and only using rape as a tool, and they contributes to rape culture. (If you don’t know what that is, you can look it up or I can link you to some stuff~.)
        Rape should never be used to show us how evil a character is, or how tormented and traumatized someone is. That’s not good writing. It’s lazy, contrived and making a terrible experience cheap. (Because rape isn’t always about outright monstrous people just taking you while they have someone point a gun at you, etc.)

        To me, it’d be just as horrific if not more so if they used that same technique with a male character. Rape is horrible for any gender, but males (and those who identify as male) have an incredibly rough time with rape as well, and I’d probably feel more squicked out if they flipped the genders in that situation and had to watch it still. It’s horrific and gross either way, and not just because it’s rape, but that they’re just using it to go “look how evil they are!” and make us go “I’ll protect you!”

        Since they’re trying to make you relate to her as a human, using such trauma and including rape, there’s nothing stress-relieving or light-hearted about the game obviously. And to not call out problems when we see them, whether in a game or movie, or about any -ism (sexism, classcism, racism, cis and sexuality related issues) does not do anything or anyone justice. If we see it, we should analyze it and point it out. Especially if it means the team can learn something and approach the situation better. And all of our media will always have an affect, even small.

        It’s always my goal to be open-minded~. And there are lots of things I can give the benefit of the doubt. However, the team (and Rosenberg especially) have crossed some lines without knowing what they’re doing (or bothering to research, which is worse) and that I cannot forgive, no matter how open I am. I won’t support a game that treats its female character(s) like this, especially after eharing what someone on the team had to say. You and anyone else are welcome to, but my stance on the issues means I’m going to speak with my lack of money and calling them out.

        And it’s not annoying. To me, it’s good if more people join the discussion~. It’s always a shame if people don’t see the problem, whether before or after discussing it, but if I can point it out to more people and open them up to why these things are problematic, then maybe they’ll notice it more and help call it out too~.

        • Setsuryuu

          To be courteous and to be silly are my specialties!  xD  Talking down bellow with mirumu and SirRichard I went deeper on my views of it, and yeah, I see things wrong it in, but I see things as many or more things right too! xP

          In origin stories, specially on anime, I often see people opt for the “it was a fragile dude before” line of story to badass characters. This creates a contrast to how he is recently and justifies telling an origin story at all. It’s common resource because, if you want to truly explain why a character is the way it is, you have to tell a story of change; if the character has always been a badass since young… Then he is like that because he was born that way? The more I could relate to other aspects of the chars, I’d always cringe when thinking of his badassery. x_x (like Dante is super cool but that’s a lot because he is part demon, but this Lara might be super cool and perhaps if I were in that situation she got in that game, even I could turn out badass too… If I survive! XD So yeah, tne becomes more relatable than the other).

          There’s no right way to do a story though and I don’t think they’re claiming this is the only way to do it too, but you have to choose something to justify the origin-story-game and they opt for that trope. I’m just showing alternatives beyond “they did that because she is a girl”. (…I’m not saying they didn’t too, how can I truly know what’s on their mind? XD That one phrase was really bad!)

          Yeah, I comment about what I though wrong of Rosenberg’s words (of the link I found at least lol) bellow. I see all that you’re saying, but without thinking it’s as definitive as you claim… Can I agree disagreeing? :P

          I know. Tsc, and I knew this would be hard to explain… xP I want to say I agree with all, but there’s a big difference between “rape should never be used” to “rape should never be used banally ”. You won’t raise awareness about society’s cultural misconceptions on the subject anyway if you keep it locked as a taboo, so let’s focus again this is fiction; maybe you think ANY depictions of hate promotes it when someone sees the repercussions of it in a story and just becomes even more adamant against it, and less bound by those misconceptions. There you go, just change that and I agree with you. xD Either way I’m talking more generally now, I don’t know what route the game will take.

          Let me delve on that a bit, since we seem to be ignore it; what do I mean by “I don’t know what route the game will take”.

          Case A: they use “rape” only in that trailer scene, in which no rape actually occurs (this an attempt) and then later is forgotten to NEVER be brought again among tons of other stuff happening in Lara’s survival. So to me “rape” is barely a part of story here at all and is just mentioned in an interview to make it looks more dark and gritty, a thing I find reprehensible by the way, but not a fault of the game per se, a fault of the interviewed.

          Case B: That’s rape all over the island because they’re somehow all uncivilized madmen with no compassion and their culture is really disturbing. And they don’t even make an effort to explain how they come to create such deranged culture, or maybe they stick too “they just got separated from normal society and that’s how they ended up”. Now thing is really sick and want to make me puke, and I guess at some point that’s how you’re feeling after this marketing errors so far. But doesn’t that sound utterly absurd to be true? I can’t think it’ll be like that.

          Case C: Eventually along the gameplay you see they’re treating it more humanly, with complexity and arising big questions. Not every islander is a rapist too, because to generalize is to dehumanize. And there’s a clear reason to why they are hostile at general AND a clear reason to why they resort to rape in this or that moment, so it’s not banal and it’s clearly a psychopathological matter. All that “control” thing comes to play, being treated very seriously, not to mention how devastating it is to the victims, ultimately creating an experience so revolting that makes it a symbol of anti-rape feelings and a rich insight on a victim’s mind and a crush over any previous misconceptions on the matter.

          I guess they’re all possible situations so far, to different degrees of
          probability. I could go along all day making tiny alterations and new
          possibilities maybe, but I’ll simplified that as an example of 3 main point of views. Take it they as not perfect examples in detail, but try to analyze it overall. A is what I think it is the case, what’s happening/will happen. B is how maybe you’re thinking it is, at least from my (exaggerated, to highlight main details) point of view.

          And C would be an ideal version just to try to show how rape shouldn’t be completely ruled out of fiction. Even though I’ll admit, I hear there’s rape themes in a Dostoyevski “Crime and Punishment” and I get all “geez, that could have been kept that out”, I still value the freedom of speech and I reckon it can be used interestingly by someone skilled. Like it is in some manga like “Bitter Virgin” or that French movie “Irréversible”. I cringe every time anyway xP so I’m not saying you shouldn’t feel bad!

          Even if they are going for A, they’re simplifying a complex theme; not to call out problems, but yeah, still to be fun and stress relieving to people that simply enjoy darker settings. It won’t please everyone, but it’s not like people dig that for horror’s sake, sadism and promotion of those atrocities;  in another scenario to broaden perspective, I believe some people like darker settings because of the opportunity to overcome stressful situations in a controlled environment.

          It becomes less about the game themes and more about the building of character. Just like scary stories being told to children. Some people like that. And you can’t get dark with going in complex areas, but you have to simplify the complex to not turn it cult and alienate a bigger audience, and that way you don’t call out the problems! Close, but not the same as turning it banal, it depends on how its handled. We’re talking of deep human issues here, complexity at it’s finest; let’s make an axiom that no axioms can be made! xP Each case is a case.

          Argh, enough. xP I enjoy it, but I feel tired debating with you… It’s like we’re 90% on the same page, but the 10% that lacks matters. And the last I see I’m writing too much trying to guarantee I’ll go around the 90 to address the 10 and see you reply with my exact thoughts on the subject, apart from that one or two tiny thing I can’t overlook! Haha, it’s like walking on a treadmill. xP I’m not even aiming to change your mind, just expressing my point (it seems too hard! xD).

          Well I’ll try to shrug off this feeling of “pointlessness” and get my fingers crossed that all this was worth for something somehow, be it even just one person outside from us just giving some thought in the matter…

          • puchinri

            Sadly, I can’t see many things that are right here. If they exist, that much is good at least.

            I have very rarely seen anyone, even in anime, make their male protags weak (especially emotionally and physically weaker) in a background. In general, I think this can be either very cheap, or the most sensible. Some characters simply don’t need to (and probably shouldn’t) start off “weak.” This is regardless of gender or whatever to me, but especially with female characters, I think creators need to be smart about when and how to use this. (Someone did point out a perfectly good origin for her already though where she was nowhere near as weak as this, but not as able and competent as before.)

            My bad if it seemed like I implied rape should never appear in fiction. I think if handled well and with good intentions, sometimes it can be very illuminating and important. However, rape should not be used as a tool I believe, because then, we’re probably not using it well. When you use rape as a tool to show how traumatic things were/are for a character, you are cheapening the real life problems and implications around rape. When you use it to show how “ebil!” a character is, you are very much so cheapening it. Note, how you use it is still very important. If you’re someone who uses it casually, you’re using it wrong already. And that’s my problem here. They jump to “what’s the worst that can happen to a lady? And make you want to protect her? OH! Rape~!”. That’s not how you use rape. He wants to make her a cornered animal and use it to show us how she has to come out on top. This is a trope that has been used and abused a lot and is not good writing or story-telling in any way or manner.

            On top of this, they’re protraying rape exactly the way most other media does. Rarely does media show rape is not just or even mostly stranger danger, or how it truly affects the victim, or what type of people that we suspect the least (or most) are and can be rapists. Rape is handled very basic when used in most writing, and that seems to be the case here too. It doesn’t actually help to raise awareness or tell us anything. There’s no message from the rape here (except that, bad man tries to rape Lara and she kills him to survive; which isn’t really a message either).

            Case A : That would definitely be reprehensible for the team to do, and it would be gross that they thought it was okay.

            Case B : It doesn’t sound like that was implied, and I’d be so pissed and horrified if I found out it was as terrible as that. Lets not give them any ideas though. ouo;

            Case C : That. . . would also be cheap story-telling. No, not all of them should be rapists. In general, we shouldn’t have to or really jump to the conclusion that all of them are (besides, some of them could be asexual or homosexual, or female and heterosexual; so they shouldn’t be joining in). But to say there’s a reason for them to? I can’t see how that’d work. And it seems the only attempted rapist (that we know of so far) is shot and killed by Lara, as her first kill. If they bothered to try and explore things intelligently, it’d be nice, but this isn’t that team. The interview alone proved that (well, especially when coupled with everything).

            There are definitely fictional media that handle rape well, but considering where society is with rape, it may be best if our stories don’t try to tell us how rape is, more than listening to people. I think there’s a place for everything, but in things like this, actually hearing people out with their real and true stories is more important. It’s like other issues; sure, a story can express how terrible racism is, but after that, are you actually going to start picking up on it, analyzing media and society and being more alert and sensitive? Are you actually going to listen to people that experience it firsthand? It’s important to have a space for these things in media, especially when skilled people will tackle them and help us form our understanding around it better, but a lot of material cheaply glosses over very strong and problematic real world issues, and they sometimes do more harm than good.

            It’s fine to express a point~. I mean, at this point, I’ve done a lot of reading and studying up on matters like this and ones clsoely linked to it (sexism, sexualzied violence, rape; real life situations, media examples in games, movies, etc); because of all that, my stance and mindset won’t change no matter what. I’m glad you’ve taken an interest in it, even if I don’t agree how your interests lies with it.

            Also, I’ll just respond here to your reply from below :

            I think we should touch on dark and mature matters as a society; we really need to address them more often! Part of problem in not overcoming -isms more is that we often refuse to talk about them, and even less so acknowledge them (quite sadly). However, a lot of people try to confuse “dark” and “mature” for things they don’t inherently (or at first) mean. They’ll also use these themes as an excuse to do what they want and say what they want, without attaching a real message. (Kind of like Zack Snyder and that movie with the girls in school uniforms and stuff.)

            Really, there isn’t as much of a risk to using these tools as people think. A lot of people casually use rape and harsh violence. There’s no real risk. Sure, some people will get upset, but look at series like Game of Thrones. It has plenty of rape and questionable, sexual content, but it’s going on strong. That’s why I can’t praise it. It’s not brave to try and use rape or any strong subject matter. What I do praise is when people decide to tackle the subject matter, do their research and deliver a good story and great message. For instance, Mawaru Penguindrum did this, as well as Utena. I commend Ikuhara and the writers he worked with on each show, because they tackled some very strong themes and matters and they did a good job.

            I think both the tools and the person wileding them should be criticized. However, I think there is only an extent to blame with the tool. Maybe a better way of saying it. . . don’t try to use an all-purpose tool when you could use a better, more specialized tool and do a more effiecent, clean job. Not every tool can be used for everything or how we want always. You can use rape to send a message if you want, but if you’re shoe-horning it in and not really knowing what you’re doing, you’re not doing anything right or good.

            I’ll also have to disagree with you here; I think you may have misunderstood the status quo. Using these tropes and cliches as they please is exactly what the status quo has and does often. Just look at Hollywood, or our comics industry (DC is especially guilty). That’s the status quo. It also is largely the gaming industry as a whole. That’s a big part of the problem as well. It’s the status quo using these terribly abused, tired cliches without any real reprecussions. I mean, even with this game, a lot of people are ignoring and even excusing and defending what they’re doing (and many of them are missing the point as badl as Rosenberg is). So even if we raise all this awareness and show our displeasure, what happens? The game still sells. It might even sell very well. There’s no real slap on the wrist even for them here.

            I think I kind of see your points, and I don’t mind you bringing up alternative perspectives and views, but I think they come from a (slightly) uninformed place and a well-intentioned but not well placed mindset. (Lol, and I wish as many people would speak up for these problems as there are people playing devil’s advocate and all. x’D)

          • Setsuryuu

            Hmmm, I don’t remember in background specifically, but weak male protags (that maybe turns into badass later) are pretty much everywhere in Japan this days (I won’t speculate into why, but it has to do with the zeitgeist there). The beginning of this year we had the protags of Mirai Nikki and Guilty Crown as great symbols of that.

            And just to stubbornly say something I know you’ll definitely disagree, to me she seems as weak as “badass but not just as able and competent as before”, after all the more she gets hurt she will still survive and strive against all odds on her own right? *cuts to next trailer they add a tuxedo mask dude to help her sometimes and I kill myself*

            I actually, not talking specifically on this game again, like more the idea of a hero as “this is not easy, I’m REALLY getting injuried in ways health potions can’t help me but I will still survive and win this” and that’s hard to see anywhere (if I can remember at all… Maybe the old man of the Korean movie Old Boy?).  Again, I’m digressing and not talking exactly of the game (because I know your point is to complain of the “why” you and I dislike so I keep showing possible views of “maybe that’s not why” to try to shift the focus on the “what” part I like and you don’t care since it’s not your point, so that was stupid of me).

            When I say “tool” I mean “trope”. And I guess almost everything in a story is a trope right?…If it’s not, blame tv tropes for making me believe that (after all there’s no clear-cut translation to this word in my mother tongue. We might call it “ferramenta”/”tool”, but that would be in a more metaphorical way to do that “trope” meaning I said before). So yeah, I get it now you’re using “tool”
            in a meaning different than mine so please forgive my misunderstanding.

            Yeah, so what you said is how you dislike Case A (if I described it correctly), and Case A is how most media depicts it nowadays.  As you said, it’s way too commonly used, so me in my throne of naivety like to believe people don’t take it seriously something overused in a way so silly… I wasn’t saying they should do it, just that I’d despise it and let it go.

            Yeah, B was supposed to be A taken to an extreme.

            C was supposed to be the opposite of B. Don’t call “story-telling” that! There was no story, just a premise. xP  “Proof” is so harsh to say at this “before released” stage! I said I think A is more probable, and playing the semantic games, 99% chance is still not a prove that 1% it won’t look like that exactly when you get the game to play. I’m sorry, I know, I’m being picky. I know, the
            probability is set a hell high that they do not deserve to be defended. I know, it’s just a videogame (haha!) But to me it’s still a preconception (and grr, I hate those!). You are reaching inductive “proof” whether the future says you’re right not, it’s faulty logic now.  Here, let me see if this link helps! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductive_reasoning#Inductive_vs._deductive_reasoning

            It’s like the swan part. You know there is black swans right? Good, (I took time to learn that, even after Natalie Portman’s movie haha! xD) Anyway, someone says:

            “All swans I ever saw or heard about are white. Therefore,
            this is a proof all swans are white.”

            Get my point?

            “All these trailers suggests so far and this guy’s interview points out this game will treat these subjects bad. Therefore, this is a proof this game will treat these subjects bad.”

            Both claims take a part of the whole to defines the whole. Hell, even the scene she kills the guy in the trailer is not being seen as a “whole”, just the more dramatic main parts; will it have something more before/after/during making it look less cheap? (“falsifying” all that you claim so far that as “proof”). We can’t know before the game is out, as we can’t see all the swans of existence, so we might resort to inductive reasoning to speed up a very strong and backed up conclusion to ourselves now. But not a “right” one exactly because it is impossible to tell how the whole is seeing only a fraction of it.

            Maybe I’m just too much of a fan of “falsifiability” (this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability ) for you to get me if you don’t live by my philosophical inclinations lol (but it’s not my point to preach, just to share).

            Now can I say again that I think the probability is high that it goes wrong and, among all ups and downs that I like or not in what I saw so far, I’m not exactly defending the game? Good. That’s important too! xP

            …Yeah, I know, look at me going way too far beyond, digressing, and not actually focusing on the game but on the mechanics of a conversation! xD

            “They sometimes do more harm than good”. Again, each case is a case for me… You’re making yourself look dispirited through my eyes, puchinri! Please don’t go that path! Keep the faith that a lot of idiots doing it bad (and being heard a lot) won’t take the place of the people who treat these subjects right. Be wary of the bad signs they give beforehand, but don’t lose hope and think “they’re just gonna screw up again, they always do, it’s probably best to not try at all” until it is out. Then flame it the hell up if it actually goes that bad! XD And don’t think it’s needed to either treat it in fiction or discussing with people in real life, both can be done together or concomitantly . Seriously, keep those hopes up! *joking* XP

            Btw, “–listen to people that experience it firsthand? It’s important to have a space for these things in media–” is a bit creepy since it’s something that sounds not hard to be turned into a exploitative circus over other people’s tragedies. I saw that tons of times before.  Yet another tool that is all about how it is handled to become something good or bad.

            P-please, don’t spoil Game of Thrones to me, I’m ashamed but I’m way behind in it. xP Hey! Now I remembered it was you who was around when I playing Mawaru Penguindrum’s Kanba in the comments here… /stopDigressing

            I see this is really a matter of “how” huh? Our approaches to it. Y’know, you’re making me worried about what is your view about me in your head (as if you think I’m going pro-sexual discrimination/violence, or anything x_x I hope you’re not thinking like that!).

            I just… Now I’m getting this feeling you take all this personally. That’s your “approach”. I like that, but I also feel this arrogance of thinking I should provide you more perspective. Beneath the pretty sight of seeing someone passionate with a subject, your approach to this also clicks too much with things that bother me.  That “it’s final” stance. “It’s proof”.  As if you forget it’s also “your opinion” or/and “the results of your research”.

            Once again, let me call that induction thingy up there;  no matter how study you make on a subject you can always find a person who play the “exception to the rule”. And I don’t like to make less of such exceptions as if “they are flukes so let’s ignore them and come back to the rule once again”. I like to take all into account at the same time, not making less of both the “rule made by study” and the “exception (even if only few) that appears with experience” and say that studies can only get you so far, therefore it is wrong to “glorify” them and think people going against mistreating it.  Specially because I had no idea there would be rape in Game of Thrones and I can’t see it from the great first season epis I saw so far they treating it badly! *idiot* xP

            And you kind of just make an argument to say the tool is not at fault at all while saying it has some blame.

            “Not every tool can be used for everything or how we want always. You can use rape to send a message if you want, but if you’re shoe-horning it in and not really knowing what you’re doing, you’re not doing anything right or good.”

            This is all about pointing out what happens when mishandling a storytelling tool. Again, I think you’re growing so dispirited thinking people can’t handle that right in any possible way forever in future human history that you make the tool also share a blame in all this, only to later admit “Not every… [basically you tell “don’t mishandle the toll]. You can use [trope] to [one example of proper handling] but if [example of mishandling] you’re not doing anything right or good” which is basically absolving the tool from all blame and putting the blame on the “you” that is using it. xP

            What I meant by “status quo” was more than just the mishandling, but the unwillingness to take the risk of handling well or poorly a sensitive subject at all. That’s how I feel it is nowadays. I praise attempts of trying to proper handling it because I rather think that is their intention and they were just incompetent to fulfill it if it goes wrong. I praise because I’m a bit dispirited too and I don’t think amidst all these mishandlings there’s people even [trying] to do it right! Lol I praise because I need to believe there IS people trying to do it right amongst all those failures! xP

            I like to join Socrates and also say that “I only know that I know nothing”. And yeah, I know how in a society as the one of today that practically forces you to commit to an opinion a stance like that can be annoying as hell. It just makes sense to me. I don’t use it to keep myself on the fence forever, but try to analyze a subject without bias, see the pros and cons of what one might think to have either just the former or the latter and imagine how it is to be in that other person’s shoes to address a matter objectively. That’s my mindset.

            So don’t see me as a madmen that don’t think it’s important  to speak up for these problems! X_x It’s just that in this “how” we have no “90agree/10disagree” % difference; our approaches are different A LOT! Lol~ Not wrong, or right, just different.  That’s why I keep reinforcing I just want you to understand my points, and not to change your mind (if anything, I always thought you were well-intentioned yourself… and that’s already good enough in aworld like ours! xD)

          • puchinri

            Er, I’m still half asleep right now, so while I’m going to try and sound at least mildly intelligible, sorry if I start to make zero sense. x’);

            For those protagonists, it’s not that we see them as strong characters and later delve into their background. They start off weak (for various tropes I usually don’t agree with either, depending) and they grow stronger as a coming of age story usually. While the base point is still growing into a stronger character, the context is wildly different.

            I usually count most tools and tropes as the same thing, but there are some writing techniques and such that I would still call tools, but not immediately count as tropes. Most of what we’re referring does relate to tropes (and thank goodness for tvtropes!), but plenty exists outside of that. Then again, even TvTropes highlights how terrible (and badly used) some of what we see here is and how problematic it is.

            Lol, but it would be cheap story-telling~! And even if it is just a premise, going with it would make it part of the story-telling. I’m actually usually on the side of waiting until you try something, but I make exceptions. And this time, I actually don’t have to wait. My problem is with everything we’ve seen already. There’s already heavily problematic material, and that alone is the problem. They (mis)used an attempted rape scene, and as a point of growth for a (female) character. To make it worse, that interview happened. And just recently, they did massive backpedaling. If I was criticizing the gameplay, waiting would be a legit point. However, if I see a scene from a movie where rape is being used inappropriately, the rest of the movie already doesn’t matter. There is not any defending that. And for me, it’s not just the rape that’s problematic, but it’s certainly the strongest point right now.

            Lol again~. Well, how do I say? It’s fact that many misrepresentations of rape do more harm than good. This also do not apply solely to rape or gender and sexuality issues. Problems with race and ethnicity, class and other issues have it too. Now, I’m always glad for the people that do it right. I love and adore them~. However, they’re am minority, and it’s hard to get everyone that sees the majority bad stuff to hone in on the minority. If people keep using tropes they have zero experience with and don’t even bother to do research, just for the sake of evoking an emotional response, it will cause real life implications. Society is always an interesting proof of how these parts work.

            That may sound creepy, but a lot of victims of rape and sexual molestation and/or violence speak up and out eventually. And if we ignore them, or just decide to listen to media instead of them, we’re hurting them even more. When these people speak up, we should be hearing them out first.

            Haha! I have only seen the first four episodes. But I know a lot about what goes on later due to the internet and people I know who read the books (and watched some). But some of the rape happens within the first three or two episodes, so you know what I mean~. And yep! Mawaru, while not what I wanted it to be entirely, fulfilled a brilliant message – many messages – and Ikuhara and the people he works with do a great job of using certain tools to deliver a message and not just rely on shock value. Yes, you will be surprised. But you will not just be surprised; he will open your eyes (unless there are some really ignorant people watching lol).

            No worries! I don’t think you’re someone who condones sexual violence or discrimination. However, you have to consider; when you defend something or want to give it the benefit of the doubt, it may reflect on you. Not badly, but it will make some people believe that these issues aren’t as serious or important to you. And maybe they’re not, and that (kinda?) might be fine too, but you have to remember how serious they are in the world, to those that experience it and those that want to be allies to those people. (I should say, active allies).

            Like I pointed out before, not everyone misuses a tool~. A lot of people do, but not everyone. Again, Ikuhara uses very strong subjects, very brilliantly. Berserk is incredibly dark and has a lot of rape, and while it doesn’t generally send a message so much, I don’t think it’s there for pure shock value either. I don’t think Miura uses rape all that well, but he doesn’t abuse it (yet).

            But if I see someone misuse a tool, and they say things to actively show me that they don’t know what they’re doing, I will call them out on it. And, heck, if we call people out early enough, they can fix the problem before it’s too late. (And if they were that desperate on using the rape, they could research or call in someone who understands these things a lot deeper. That’d be the responsible thing to do from the start, really.)

            I won’t praise people like Rosenberg or Snyder because they chose to use something like this, didn’t do the research, and spoke miles for themselves and their intent. Now, if someone wants to make a story about overcoming rape and isn’t too informed but was well-intentioned, I probably won’t praise them (because they should have informed themselves), but I’m not going to come down (too) hard on them. If someone happens to use rape in a story and manages to deliver a great message, I will most certainly praise that person and hope they write more smart, insightful stories. I don’t think attempt always deserves praise, and in our world, we can’t always give everyone the benefit of the doubt. That may sound cold or too cautious, but I think that’s okay, because when we see those that deserve it, we can give it to them fullheartedly and make them udnerstand how strongly we’re pleased and inspired by them. (Note, this doesn’t go for everything involving attempt and praise obviously, but adults trying to tackle strong subjects and/or mature matters does. x’D)

            From the start, I kind of understood that you just wanted to make your point, and I’ve always been fine with that~. It’s fine to reinforce it. :’D
            My goal is a lot different (I didn’t have much of a goal in the beginning though, lol), but I understand where you’re coming from~.

    • http://wiredjungle.wordpress.com/ DrakosAmatras

      Generally speaking though, I wouldn’t completely write off weak characters as an element of fiction. That said, I also notice that women are put into that role far too often/easily.

      As for rape… I consider it a valid tool of fiction as well. But seeing how it’s a sensitive topic, it’s a good idea to handle it more tactfully.

      • Setsuryuu

        *le gasp* Devilish cat-boy with a tie! Don’t come here and speak my thoughts on it in with so fews words! I feel terrible now. xP

        I’m joking of course. Yes, there’s two sides of this in each of the cases, and I feel very good to see someone else also pointing them out here. ^^

      • puchinri

        Oh, definitely. I guess my wording could have been better. x’D;
        I just meant that if you intentionally make a character incredibly weak, especially for the purpose of trying to relate them to someone (well, for me personally), I can’t see how that’s always going to work (I guess there are interesting implications there too). I don’t mind a strong character (with a strong background) doing their thing.

        Definitely. I don’t think it should never be used per se, but when you use it, don’t do so without research. Lots of proper research. (When people don’t research something, or they barely make an effort to, that tells me a lot about how they want to use something.)

  • http://radiantloki.blogspot.com/ Mark Dinh

    After reading all the below comments and the whole interview. Just give me the damn game. I don’t care about the past Lara Croft or this is an entirely new Lara Croft. I don’t really mind what he meant that some games are similar to another because that is kinda true. I could say The Last of Us is similar to Uncharted, Dead Island, and some other stuff. I know that past Lara Croft, they didn’t really have much story into it.

    In my opinion, I wouldn’t mind have a story in any game, as long as it’s entertaining. I don’t think I would ever play a game without much of a story-line to the game… that is why I never really get into Minecraft (even though that is just meant for creativity). Everything is inspired by something, so there is obviously going to be something that is related to the inspiration.

    I don’t really mind where Crystal Dynamic is taking Lara, though I do agree on some off the moaning sounds she makes through most of the game could make it rather odd and provide some fan-service to previous or perverted fans… kinda of creepy. Game-play looks nice, the background, details etc. I like the new look of this Lara, but don’t mistake me, I like the “Angelina Jolie” model too.

    I guess I’m just open to many things that I can enjoy and get into. Games are meant for entertainment and create memories as you play them. In the same sense when he talks about movies. Again, it all comes down to your opinions about what you see, or play, but keep in mind that they don’t always appeal to everyone and don’t have to bash on it like no tomorrow. When it comes out and you get it/ rent it, then you say how you felt about the product. When I first saw Dead Island, I was really hyped about it, until I got the game and I didn’t really felt it was “finished” but still loved it.

    If you read this, thanks and I hope that somehow I helped keep you in having a open mind about anything in the world.

    • British_Otaku

      Cool opinion in general, Mark. Though I still think a good degree of judgement can be made on games prior to release and in the case of reboots, should be less critical of where it is attempting to take the character or how it is trying to evolve the universe. If it doesn’t do enough to reinvent though (like DmC in my opinion), it can be criticised as an original game and as a reboot.

      And on this…

      “I do agree on some off the moaning sounds she makes through most of the
      game could make it rather odd and provide some fan-service to previous
      or perverted fans… kinda of creepy.”

      Rule 34 my friend, someone out there has already taken sound clips from this game for their fantasy. Even Brawl had a base who decided to take sound clips and animations… differently for the sake of their fanfics.

    • puchinri

      That was a lot of context, so I’m only going to read and focus on the last paragraphs from each comment. I hope you won’t mind me replying to this comment, because it was closet, and scrolling up is going to be killer on my wrist eventually. x’D;

      There’s nothing wrong with enjoying what you do. I wouldn’t suggest supporting something like this fully, but if you must play it, I’d suggest buying used or renting it instead.

      However, the problem is not whether or not someone enjoys the game. I enjoy plenty of media that has problematic elements. But! That does not stop me from picking up on, analzying and calling out any problematic or questionable issues. Nothing is free from criticism, and if something does have an obvious problem, it’s best to point it out. It doesn’t mean everyone hs to stop enjoying it; I think we should all just be more open to these things and point them out. If we do, we’re only helping everyone. If the creators see people having a problem with the media but enjoying it mostly/otherwise, maybe they’ll see their problem and improve upon it in the future.

      There’s a large difference between bashing and criticism. To me, bashing comes from an obnoxious place in which you just hate on something because you can, whether or not you lack spite. When you criticize something, it’s because you want people to be aware of the issue. Sometimes, I’m most harsh on the things I love most because I expect better.

      Sometimes, you can criticize something before you’ve tried it too. This is one of those cases. If I see anything that throws in sexual violence and/or rape, I’m going to be alert. If it handles it bad (and/or the team/anyone on it says things that show they’re coming from a misinformed and not well-intentioned place), I will come down hard on something. If you want to use a powerful topic like that, you need to be smart and mindful about it, and if you’re not, you should expect a good, strong criticism. You should even if you don’t use something as strong.

      I think games are definitely meant for entertainment, but sometimes, that entertainment also mingles with intellectual insight and trying to get us thinking. With or without is fine. And gaming – nor any media – does not exist in a vaccuum, no matter how much some of us wish they did.

      Having an open-mind is what I try best! Among other things. >uO
      I hope you too will have an open mind~.

  • Yuri

    Devs say Lara’s age is 21 but she looks way older than that to me.

    • Setsuryuu

      They forgot to mention “21 with no makeup”.

  • Shogunreaper

     I’ll probably skip this game, i don’t want to play a game muted and what i saw of the demo awhile back i couldn’t stand all the moaning sounds she was making.

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Jonn-Jonnz/100001551260839 Jonn Jonnz

      BUT! BUT! How would you know she was a woman if she wasn’t constantly crying and moaning?! This new Lara Croft is a feminist icon and you’re a chauvinist male oppressor if you don’t buy 9001 copies at launch.

    • Yuri

       Funny you mention that…. my sister gave me a disgusted look from behind the computer screen thinking I was watching some porn.  When I showed her it was the trailer for the new TR she was like… “wtf do you play nowadays, you disappoint me bla bla bla”. Just goes to show that you can never win with women…. :-(

      • puchinri

        Isn’t it the devs making it so you can’t win though? They’re obviously plotting against you. >’D

  • Visa Vang

    Games are games and reused themes are reused theme. Gamers nowadays should’ve gotten used to that already. It’s not like the 80s-90s where games are still finding its way around. And, play the game, don’t judge the game by early previews and pre-viewers.

  • http://radiantloki.blogspot.com/ Mark Dinh

    After reading more comments below me, I think I knowledge about this game is still the same as before.

    What puchinri said about rape as a tool, yes it is very terrible. No one likes seeing someone going through just a traumatic experience, and ist just plain distguisting to see it unfold, even if it’s attempted rape. I agree on the fact that is odd, and really a hard decision to implement. Some people may not also like the constant moaning of Lara through the game because that can really start to bug you if it’s play constantly over and over again like no tomorrow, while some might not even notice. If you think about it though, sometimes things change or new things are added and we may not like it at all. Our societies opinions about certain things changes constantly, whether we like it or not. Our generation is obviously may have certain views of our previous generation, but we also have our own. When FF XIII came out and I saw how the mechanics were totally change but having something similar to the previous was odd to me, but I still enjoyed it. 

    Now puchinri, if your reading this, I’m not against you. I understand what you mean by it being the cheapest way out to “flesh” out a character or to add to the story-line of a character being tortured and going through a traumatic experiences. Racism, sexism isn’t the greatest thing either, or any other -ism. But you can’t really pin-point “rape” all over the reboot, I mean, that’s just a bit extreme. Yes, maybe having a female leading going through all this traumatic experiences is quite sexist compare to a male lead where they aren’t “rape” or “molested”, is harder to create it to be a safe game. The game is probably going to be rated “M” and yet, little kids get like CoD, GoW or GTA, which isn’t meant for them either because children shouldn’t treat “guns” or killing people a fun thing to do. Maybe this is a paradox version or a prequel to the many other Tomb Raiders that came out to allow previous players what Lara or what “Lara” could have gone through. Games now are becoming slightly more “realistic”, and making this “Lara” human is just a way to show it. In reality, things are far more worst, and we all know it. Maybe they can somehow approach it a different way, that would be a good idea. Don’t get my wrong puchinri, I DO see the problem and how it can effect SE and CD greatly, it not like I choose to disregard the fact it can be a serious issue but I don’t want to close it off without giving it a chance. I just don’t like the feeling of plastering one issue all over a product and treating it like it’s nothing to be thought about.

    I agree what was going around between Setsuryuu and SirRichard. Bad marketing and what is implied in the interview what the developers wanted to the viewers to see can totally change one’s aspect and opinion on a company. I love SE and Crystal Dynamics, and plenty of their games. Using rape as tool, or even if they didn’t “really” intended to make it seem as an aspect of the came just only adds to the “story” part of it. A “character” going through a traumatic experiences such as a lose of a loved one, friend, home, or anything for that matter. Don’t get me wrongs, sometimes I feel as if they are taking it to something they may have not wanted the audiences to react, or wanted them to react a certain way and it could be a huge turn-off. I don’t know how it will turn out in the end, but it’s a new way in getting the audiences attention, even though they won’t get it. To be honest when I look at Halo 4 or Watch Dogs or The Last of Us, sometimes I feel they won`t excite me as much because everyone is so hyped over them. I love Halo 4 and what 343 is taking it but I just miss the feeling of Bungie not being there. Watch Dogs is a creative IP with a mix of GTA/SR + Syndicate, but I still thought it looked nice, even though I don’t really enjoy “open-world” games.

    There are bad things, and there are good things. It all comes down to the matter of preference. People certain more than compared to the rest of everyone else. I don’t know if I am oversimplifying things or makings things more complicated, but I really enjoyed reading all of your guys thoughts. I enjoy playing games, whether it’s gory (though I don’t really like GOW…) – fighting – action packed etc, cause their meant for entertainment. Give it a try, don’t like it? Return it. I don’t mind expressing my opinion and I really enjoy reading others as well. It’s great to have a conversation about something without some having to bash on each other. I’m sorry if you think I’m just wasting your time, but thanks for reading and the conversation.

    • Setsuryuu

      Hey everyone, @puchinri:disqus @mirumu:disqus @SirRichard:disqus  come, come!

      http://www.news.com.au/technology/gaming/tomb-raider-rape-scene-offensive-lazy-internet/story-e6frfrt9-1226395804536

      Twitter is just speaks louder even when speaking less right? lol
      “Offensive and lazy” so the subject has some awareness, it’s not like people overlooks it (and if we see through the comments here, even the people disagreeing on Siliconera are not unaware of its seriousness).

      And they retract for the interview’s comment there. Actually, beyond!

      “Sexual assault of any kind is categorically not a theme that we cover in this game.”

      Somewhere deeply I knew that, one big important company worker’s interview or not, they would take the whole theme out of the way somehow. Too risky. Nevermind possible contradictions/insinuations! They wouldn’t put a scene they couldn’t dive on “reasonable doub” denial if it backlashed! Game developing politics 101. Not the only single aspect, but definetely a major trait of how I was saying that status quo is today.

      And then later they later say something close to what I did “not about protec a gil since it’s a girl but” and now I go (sic) “a character who, at first glance, has no business succeeding on this island. This island should defeat her. And what’s inspirational to me about Lara is to see her overcome all these obstacles.”

      Or “We want to show her as human,” Mr Hughes said. “To see her be scared, to see her get hurt–” and blah.And more in-depth about why she is weak here http://www.ign.com/articles/2012/06/14/lara-croft-and-the-issue-of-disempowerment from Creative Director (more of an authority than executive producer to tell about that I guess…)

      • SirRichard

        It’s good to see that they’ve acknowledged something somewhere has gone wrong, and I imagine Rosenberg’s a bit red in the face right now after this blew up. It could’ve been an earnest misstep, they could’ve been getting their message across very poorly (very very poorly), or that interview might just say things about Rosenberg, who knows.

        At least they definitely know now that the people watching the game’s progress definitely care about it, so they’ll handle it more carefully.

        • Setsuryuu

          And if you think about how Rosenberg’s interview to Kotaku dates June 11 and the Creative Director Noah Hughes interview to IGN dates June 13, they did it quite fast!! xD I can’t avoid but feel even more as I did before “it was not a [they], just Rosenberg that screwd up”.

      • malek86

        Essentially, as long as they don’t explicitly say “rape”, it’s fine?

        Also looks like they changed the whole “protect a girl” angle to “protect a human”. And here I thought Rosenberg said it was supposed to be that you wouldn’t quite feel the same for a male character.

        • Setsuryuu

          Yes! That very sentence was the biggest problem. To change for “protect a girl” to “protect a human” is the whole difference in the world; you go from possible sexist undertones (“a girl can’t take care of themselves needs be protected blah”) that was the problem. I guess. xD

          And not quite the first question (why I’m answering it last? O.o err, anyway). As long as they don’t explicitly say “rape” nor explicitly show it they create a plausible enough scenario for a “reasonable doubt” in case they denied it exists later (as it seems they’re doing now). It’s like: is it implied that it was the point? Maybe, it leaves hints to such interpreation. Can you prove that’s what would have happened if she didn’t fought back? If you take the Rosenberg testimony out of it, you can’t anymore.

          It’s just logic so it’s not something supposed to tell how you should feel about it; you might still feel it’s not fine the way it is. But just hold a bit and try to compare all tons of possible scenarios I’ve presented to the Creative Director’s already changed speech to see it at least makes a bit of more sense now (even if you or someone else still disagrees) and then you can finally think “well whatever if it makes sense, I still feel bothered by that”. lol

        • puchinri

          Well them wimmin folk always need protectin. Them mens know how to handle themselves right out the womb!

          Seriously though, it was amusing to watch everything in a way. I saw the tweet you reposted about not explicitly saying rape, which summed up their recent response to me. This change as well is interesting.

          I’m glad they’re trying, but I just hope that they backtracked because they really realize the problem, and not just because people said there was a problem. (Like when people apologize but can’t and don’t know what to say they’re apologizing for.)

      • puchinri

        I saw the back-tracking a while ago (well, yesterday or so) and figured some others were speaking up (plenty of people on kotaku were not happy either, which is nice).

        The backpedalling was interesting.

        Also, here’s a good article with great comments on the game. I think it articulates everything I was trying to say below much better than I could have.

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