Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn Producer On The Dangers Of Going Free-to-Play

By Sato . March 25, 2014 . 12:17pm

Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn producer Naoki Yoshida recently talked at GDC about how the focus on graphics killed Final Fantasy XIV and how Square Enix revived the game. During a pre-GDC interview with Famitsu, he shed some light on his thoughts about making MMORPGs with a free-to-play model, versus subscription-based titles.

 

Famitsu began by asking about Yoshida’s thoughts on subscription and free-to-play games, and why he believes Final Fantasy XIV must be a subscription-based game.

 

“I don’t recall ever saying that it ‘must’ but rather, ‘a good choice to go with,’ says Yoshida. “Actually, when the MMORPG rush started around 2005, about 100% of them began with subscriptions. The reason being, when there’s a stable subscription, you can easily see how much profit you can make each month. And you’d also want a stable development team to go with it.”

 

“When there’s a F2P model, it goes like, ‘we sold this much for this month, but who knows how much we’ll sell next month,’ and also makes employment unstable. When that happens, the developers will also feel uneasy, and it makes it harder to draw the roadmap from there on.”

 

“In order to have customers enjoy the game for longer periods of time, you’ll want to properly release content on a regular basis,” Yoshida says. “With that in mind, you’ll need a good development team, and in order to support that, a stable profit would be better.”

 

“I’ve always thought that MMORPG producers are all very nice,” says Yoshida with a laugh. “That’s not because of all the profit [they’re making], but because they’re making money in a stable fashion, and properly investing it back into the game. The reason they’re able to continue doing that, I believe, is because the content that comes from the updates is just fun.”

 

“When you go F2P, you can’t make money from the game’s content itself, but rather, you have to make profit from items and things based on time, or else the game can’t continue. However, even if you’d like to focus on updating the content, you’ll be required to work on many items and the shops used to sell them, and that’s not related to what makes the game fun, right? When you want to put 100% of your energy into making new content, but you have to split 30~40% of it into ways of making money, you might end up thinking, ‘why am I making this?’”

 

“However, developing MMORPGs costs a great deal of money, and in order to acquire such vast funds, you need to go through all kinds of investors to put in money as you develop,” explains Yoshida. “When you start a subscription-based game and fail to deliver the gift of all the subscribers you promised to the investors, they will immediately sense the risk, and say, ‘I’d like to have my money back,’ or ‘I can no longer invest in you guys.’If that were to happen, there’s no way you can keep going with the subscription.”

 

“Once you can no longer charge customers, you won’t even be able to update anymore,” he continues. “In the end, you’ll be forced to go F2P in order to immediately increase sales so that you can pay back the investors, while you try to keep it going. I believe that is the harsh reality of the present day.”

 

“Also, I believe that players lately don’t like the idea of having a daily time restriction,” Yoshida says. “I personally feel that way, too. Instead, starting out lightheartedly, then suddenly having a high voltage of gaming experience, and you can quit whenever, but when you look at the total [time played] you realize that you’ve spent an incredible amount of time on it—I believe something like that is what’s ideal now. I think games that have that going, with PvP features, such as League of Legends or World of Tanks, are perfect for F2P.”

 

“In the end, I believe it boils down to choice,” concludes Yoshida. “When it comes to business models, you choose from things like “what’s best for what game,” “what kind of experience you want it to convey,” and “how you’ll administer it”; it’s not a matter of simply what’s best, what’s strong, or what’s weak… well, I plan on talking about it at a GDC lecture.”

 

“Really, you can just change your choices depending on the games. If demands change, you can also just change your choice. Rather than having a backward way of thinking like ‘I’m going to change it because we’re not making profit,’ go with a more positive one like, ‘I’m going to change it to increase the number of players.’ If there’s a misconception that I’m just persisting in subscriptions, then it’s wrong.”

 

Famitsu then asks Yoshida whether, if there’s demand from players to sell them items [in Final Fantasy XIV], he would do it.

 

“If it won’t have an effect on the game’s balance, and the demand is there, and we can deliver such items, then sure, I believe we’d sell them,” answers Yoshida. When asked about selling items that could change a character’s appearance, Yoshida also says that he believes that would be fine to sell.

 

Famitsu concludes the F2P talk by asking when Yoshida made up his mind on the subject of selling purchasable items.

 

“The demand from players [for them] are really high…” he replies.

 

“Even for one of the question items for our next Letter from the Producer, there was a question that asks ‘when will we be able to start buying items?’ and it had about 400 thumbs ups on it. I felt that the times sure have changed.”

 

Images courtesy Famitsu.


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  • Zezlar

    He’s absolutely on the money when it comes to this topic. This is one of the main reasons I don’t like F2P titles. They focus far too much on making new sellables than generating content.

    • http://s1.zetaboards.com/Espada_of_Alexandria/index/ konpon568

      It is the reason why DC Universe Online is lagging in content since it started a few years ago. Always concentrating on selling updates since they started going F2P. And anything free that is gameplay-based, like the recent Armories, is more like a bone thrown at starving dogs. Really, when you look at their game options, you would see that no one has any other choice but to opt for the Subscription format. But despite that, there is still some nick and dime involved for basically everything.

    • TalesOtaku21

      Except you are paying way over 100 dollars a month for some content in a game you bought once already.

      It’s glorified DLC.

      Sometimes you pay for it and they don’t even update that month with anything, or maybe with nothing you care about.

      Or you can’t even play for that month, but give them your money anyway.

      This is just as much as a selling ploy than anything. Don’t be misled.

      • Flandre Scarlet

        As opposed to your average F2P title where the patch notes are 50% content, 50% new cash shop items. And because the developers aren’t getting a steady cash flow from subscribers, they aren’t obligated to actually release any free content.

        DCUO pulls this stunt by making you pay for new content anyway. Games like Guild Wars 2 release new content only to remove it a few months later. Other F2P MMOs (Neverwinter, TOR) are so deep in the P2W hole that you pretty much have to pay anyway.

        Basically, all MMOs require you to pay money to get the full experience. “Free to play” is, 99% of the time, an illusion of choice. Yes, you can theoretically play the game without ever spending a cent, but if you want that full experience? You’re gonna be paying a visit to the cash shop.

        Besides, if the game isn’t offering content anymore, you can always unsub. It’s just a choice of if you want to pay $15 a month for a steady stream of content or an undetermined amount of money over an unspecified amount of time for the same content.

      • Fen Y

        Nonsense. From a strict gameplay perspective, sub-based MMOs are always better, simply because the focus is on gameplay.

        This is simply not the case in F2P games. Do you know why F2P games even patch? To invalidate your items, so you have to buy new stuff to be up on par.

        Don’t be misled like a fool. F2P isn’t charity for you, and isn’t the industry being nice. The industry that does F2P games only wants you as food for the real players, the whales.

        Can’t play a month -> just unsub. Not a big deal. Sub games > F2P, not even a contest. MMOs are so expensive that subs simply are the only way to actually have a healthy game. As every single F2P MMO proves.

        • MogCakes

          Prepare to have a headache-inducing debate wherein the points you’ve brought up are summarily refuted with such factual gems as “but it’s so expensive, it surely can’t be worth that much”, “but I play F2P/non-P2P MMOs that are just as good and have better value”, “People who think P2P is worth the cost don’t know any better”, and “you can’t say P2P is better than F2P”. I feel like I’m banging my head against a brick wall.

  • Demeanor

    Personally my hardest barrier to mmos is a lack of time paired with an overabundance of games I want to play. How can I pump time into ff xiv when I have dark souls 2, lightning returns, chronophantasma, diva F 2nd, infamous ss, escha, symphonia etc (there are moar) all waiting at the same time? I imagine it’s a common problem with working gamers or ppl with a family, I see it as an intrinsic weak point of the genre. :P

    • andref

      That is partly why I don’t join mmos either. Mmos take a certain amount of time investment along with a particular reason to play like having a group of friends who people to play with. Solo play is nice but until a worthwhile group is available to coordinate with it won’t be long before one may drift off to play something else. This could be alluded to with online multiplayer games too such as a tight squad formed for military shooters

    • http://epiclyamazing.wordpress.com/ AzureNova

      It’s all about balance I guess. I too have the same problem concerning time management, but I still play and enjoy all of them lol =)

    • Barrylocke89

      I agree completely. I work and go to school, so my gaming time is limited. I’d rather not waste what time I do have on an mmo that requires a lot of dedicated time to really get into, especially one that requires a subscription. I do see how a subscription game with a solid fanbase can have a lot of perks compared to non subscription games, but there’s only enough room for so many of those types of games, I think.

    • Kornelious

      I’m with you there. I love FFXIV ARR but I can never really find the time to put a lot of time into it because I have so many other games…..Yet I still pay the 13$ a month for it -_,-

      • http://blackstar2661.deviantart.com/ SilverSpades

        This is one of the reasons I took a break, and going to play again when PS4 releases…

        But, then again I have
        -Mass Effect 2 to finish (again)
        -Mass Effect 3 (again)
        -FFX HD
        -FFVIII (second playthrough)
        -Infamous SS

        JESUS CHRIST CAN I GET A BREAK!?

    • Ricewarrior

      Personally it isn’t a time thing for me but more immersion and gameplay issues.

    • Kari

      First World problems.

      • disgaea36

        cut that out I almost spilled juice all over the place lmao

  • The Watcher

    i don’t mind F2P mmo’s like PSO2, as long the model does not focus on P2W, also i don’t really like sub fees because i feel pressured to HAVE to play the game, rather than play anytime i feel like it in F2P games. That why i think PSO2 is better than FF14 imo

    • Altin

      This. PSO2 is really one of the few games in which I dont mind the term F2P at all. But I really would like to play ARR very soon too ^^

  • http://epiclyamazing.wordpress.com/ AzureNova

    Yoshida = Awesome. I’ve been playing ARR from the beginning, and I still am now. It seems that Yoshida just knows what he’s doing when it comes to these things, and ARR’s success has proved that. Only a few more days till Update 2.2, and I’m looking forward to it.

    • Pyrofrost

      Whoa really?! What server you on? :3

      • http://epiclyamazing.wordpress.com/ AzureNova

        Adamantoise =)

        • Pyrofrost

          Cool! I’m on Hyperion, for now ^_^

          • http://epiclyamazing.wordpress.com/ AzureNova

            Nice. Hyperion was one of the servers that I was thinking about going to when I started playing. For now? Thinking of switching servers?

          • Pyrofrost

            Atm i’m pretty undecided on where I want to be, to be honest xD
            I was pretty much at Hyperion from start though, it’s an ok place. Just not has homie as I would like, if that makes sense. How is Adamantoise, and how long have you been there?

          • http://epiclyamazing.wordpress.com/ AzureNova

            I’ve been here since the beginning, and it’s been pretty awesome. When you’ve been on one server for so long you end up making a lot of friendships and connections with people and groups.

            The population is plentiful so that there is a plus too lol.

          • Pyrofrost

            That’s cool, I’m very glad to hear you’re enjoying it ^_^

            How far along are you in coil and whatnot? I haven’t started it yet myself xD

          • http://epiclyamazing.wordpress.com/ AzureNova

            I’ve done every Coil except for 5 lol

          • Pyrofrost

            Oh nice, congrats ^_^

            I need to get around to finding a group I’d be comfortable running it with myself xD

          • Akane Zuliani

            I’m playing on Adamantoise as well, server is really friendly, what FC you are on?
            Also really hyped for 2.2

          • http://epiclyamazing.wordpress.com/ AzureNova

            Glad to meet another fellow Adamantee lol. I’m in KK, I’m actually Sub leader there. Its a small FC, but has nice people lol. I am really hyped for 2.2 as well. Looking forward to all the new features and getting my Artifact 3 armor, and Leviathan stuff. The Leviathan fight has me really excited lol

  • Pyrofrost

    Yoshida-san, thank you so much for not going free-to-play, and continuing to stand firmly against it. That is one of the reasons I am a subscriber, and will continue to be a subscriber.

    • andref

      I don’t think he is firmly against rather than wary of it due to wanting to avoid the financial trap that comes with switching without any proper put into it outside of money reasons

      • Pyrofrost

        I dunno, Yoshida has been vocally anti-F2P for this game since long before the game’s release. It’s one of the reasons I have stuck with ARR.

        He has to, of course, carefully word things in interviews like these so he doesn’t come across as slamming those who use or prefer the F2P model.

        • andref

          You may possibly be right, I don’t necessarily follow particular developers closely so my only viewpoint is based what is said here

          • Pyrofrost

            It’s understandable why you would think that. Basically, Yoshida’s reasoning for not going F2P (aside from the stigma with F2P), was the fact that F2P is just not a sure investment.

            With P2P, you have steady, month to month payments coming in, it’s more of a sure thing. With F2P, you may have one month when you make a great deal of money, then the next few months could be a drought. There is no assurance involved in F2P, and they have an extremely low retention rate.

            Plus, due to SE not having to answer to investors concerning ARR, they can afford to take the slow, sure, and steady route with the game.

            That’s what he basically explained during the beta phase.

          • andref

            Ok I understand and thank you for the explanation

          • Pyrofrost

            Not a problem ^^

    • TalesOtaku21

      Why do you prefer subscribing? To support the company? I am very skeptical that they actually need 13-15 dollars from every person playing this game to make some updates. It’s very, very obviously a marketing campaign. This makes the whole subscription idea a huge turn off for me. Especially since Guild Wars does it just fine.

      • Pyrofrost

        To be honest, it has nothing to do with supporting a company, but the kind of longevity and support P2P MMOs tend to have in my experience. I’ve tried various F2P MMOs as well, and I prefer the P2P model.

        I preferred my experience during my time with EQ1/2, FFXI, and now with FFXIV over what has been offered elsewhere. While the F2P experience may serve other people best, it’s just not my kind of experience. That’s really all I can say about it.

        • TalesOtaku21

          Ah okay. Thanks, I’ve been curious about other views of what they prefer and if there is really a difference. Since I’m a much more casual player, F2P works better for me. I have to wonder if it is really due to the difference between F2P and P2P games, or just the company involved with development.

          • Pyrofrost

            No problem at all ^_^
            Generally, when it comes to P2P models, the servers are regularly maintained and the the overall server experience is better imo. Also, the game itself is regularly maintained.
            F2P MMOs in my experience have some variation of a micro-transaction model they work with. In contrast, P2P MMOs, in my experience, have the entire game open to you from the get-go, letting you have access to absolutely everything the game has to offer. The only thing you end up paying for outside the monthly fee is expansions.

            In the end, it all comes down to the experience that suits the individual, and the individual’s situation best. What’s good, is that the industry has a plethora of MMO experiences nowadays to pretty much serve any gamer’s lifestyle and need.

          • Blag Blah

            Basically it just comes down to this. Many players like Otaku21 are simply unable to discern the differences in quality of a P2P MMO like ARR/WoW, compared to the multitudes of F2P titles. Everyone will have their opinion on why this is so. But I do agree with Otaku21′s view that $15USD a month is too expensive for a MMO. But it’s the companies choice to keep it this way. It just means imo, when they fail/unable to update in ways to satisfy their subscribers, people could move on.
            I’m a current ARR subber since launch, and I’m very disappointed with their pace of content release. I’m only subbing due to my social links with my raid group. After 2.2, and they continue to do 6month content release(sorry I don’t consider CT raid content), then I’m gonna bail, cos it’s not worth $15USD a month.

          • TalesOtaku21

            MMOs are designed to cause players to become overly obsessed with the game. They literally are created to keep people player. Forever. This is kinda why they charge for servers. Partially to pay for the services they provide. Mostly because people keep playing, exactly as they want you to. Why not turn a profit?

            Thus, there is a slight flaw with your idea. You can stop playing if you want…or if you can. But then there’s the thoughts like….what about my social links? What about all I’ve accomplished in the game thus far? What about those areas I haven’t discovered, or armor I haven’t achieved, or new things they’ve developed I haven’t seen yet?

            Hell people might be paying for their subs and they aren’t even playing the game. They just don’t wanna lose what they have gotten thus far.

            In fact, you admitted you are not content but still keeping your sub due to social links. You could get a free service like Skype to keep in contact.

            They know what they are doing. =)

          • MogCakes

            Of course they do. But without MMOs many friends made who actually move to being friends over skype and in real life would never occur. It really seems like you just dislike MMOs in general and play them as a casual experience much like standard PC/console titles. You don’t seem to really get what MMOs are about at all.

            EDIT: Hmm, well that may be an unfair assertion for me to make. You are coming from a very isolated point of view however, one that disregards the interactions with other players and experiences had in these games.

          • TalesOtaku21

            Oh here we go…

            Now I feel quite attacked and being accused due to not being ‘elite’? Since I’m questioning whether a subscription fee is actually worth it? I play casually because I don’t have the time to dedicate my life to a video game. Now you are sounding like MMOs are like…above ‘standard PC/console titles’.

            I met my boyfriend through an online gaming discussion forum. It’s not like MMOs are the end all here.

            -__- Was having casual interesting discussions and arguments and then it has to get hateful and personal.

          • MogCakes

            I’m saying MMOs are different from standard PC/Console titles, not superior or inferior. It’s a different experience entirely. I’m also not accusing you of being inferior. I do admit that my last statement in that comment was quite uncalled for and hurtful though. I’m sorry for that, you have my apologies.

            To the point, I play casually as well, I only pay when I have time to play it. Discussion forums are rather different from playing in a persistent world with others. Several others in addition to myself have already tried to explain why a sub fee is worth it, and it mostly depends on the person and their own preferences, evaluations, and perception to determine that. However, you come off less as questioning and more as trying to argue a point. If you’re going to argue a point, there will be a debate.

          • TalesOtaku21

            You realize debates don’t have to be hateful and negative? You can argue and be firm in your arguments. I’m not questioning, because I have a thought and while interested in the opinions of others, I still argue with whatever thoughts and logic I come across to see how people respond. Debates can be passive, I only become aggressive when aggression is shown towards me.

            MMOs are unique but how is it more unique to require subscriptions? Kinda like the argument between Sony and MS requiring Live subscriptions. Sony is free, MS charges. You can get PSPlus for extra features but isn’t required. Makes you wonder which is really better, which works better for your wallet, and if subscriptions are really that needed (like if SE could also offer an alternative play method for free instead of forced sub…iunno).

          • MogCakes

            I didn’t say MMOs are unique by offering subs, I said they’re unique in the way you interact with others and the game’s world and design as opposed to non-MMOs. All of the technical points about F2P vs P2P have already been laid out. At this point it’s purely down to personal preference and whether you think the game’s offering is worth it or not. I explained in my first post why I find it to be worth the cost, but you pretty much sidestepped it with the word ‘necessary’, which started our discussion down this path back into the business side of things, which have already been covered by other posters and in which you pretty much bull-head the idea that a company can just offer an MMO for free and make a steady, reliable, high profit while releasing major updates to support the game with a large development studio. What’s your justification for that notion?

            Debates are fun, I enjoy them, even if they get heated. Also, in this debate, it isn’t opinions you’re looking for, it’s facts and a supported point of view to argue against that you want. I gave you my opinion in the first post and you pretty much blew it off. I am not a passive person, and you are really the one who set the tone of the debate with passive-aggressive remarks.

          • TalesOtaku21

            Whoa whoa. Let’s back track.

            I didn’t say that MMOs are unique because of subs, I asked if they are unique ENOUGH to require subs.

            My thought process isn’t ‘I want a game for free’, it’s ‘other things do it for free so why pay?’ Or at least, why pay that much, what’s the reason? Is it really as he says? It might be, I said he MAY be PRing, he may be legit. I started pointing out how much money companies would actually make through subs because people seemed to not consider that they aren’t the only players paying. My point all along as been ‘are they taking it too far’.

            For example, you enjoy the social interaction, it seems. I do too! I really like playing MMOs, especially with my boyfriend as we are in a long distance relationship. It’s fun to play online together. But is paying a sub worth that? I’ve played GW without pumping any money into it and enjoyed it just as much.

            Another user mentioned that if you want to get competitive, you need to pump in more money, either to skip grinding or get exclusive access to stuff. Is that required? That’s a debate too. It was pointed out that some games that appear free overcharge for their cash shop. Do all free games do that? My initial point was questioning if SE, and other companies, are overcharging for subs, similar to how companies running free MMOs overcharge for their cash shop. I’m not seeing what makes these so different other than affection towards one or the other. I can’t really just defend one or the other if they are going for similar ends with different methods. Hope that makes sense. I think people are getting confused to what I’m actually talking about assuming I’m attacking the game. I’m not.

            I was fine with your opinion. I responded to it. You can have your opinion because it is yours. All I said was my initial point of if a sub is necessary is really worth it. I’ve gotten lots of responses of why, but none actually make sense. With exception of maybe servers, only because I’m not entirely sure how large the servers are…but some companies have shown capacity of having large servers for cheap, sometimes without subscription at all.

            Another example I’ve thought of is the comparison to Netflix. Netflix basically charges you a month for a DVD price to have access to stream a large assortment of movies. It’s a neat deal due to the access, as you are basically getting movies for free. I couldn’t really see the comparison, because you are paying to play a game you already bought, paying three times the actual amount of the game in a year for tri-monthly updates and end bosses (assuming you are at endgame…you still have to pay to get there). It seems like a lot of money for not a good deal.

            Opinions tend to make arguments messy, but I do accept your opinion. I just choose not to argue opinions because they are not factual or logical and can hurt feelings as well.

            Basically, all the technical points I’ve seen have been personal opinions instead of actual points of the game. Raid bosses are fine, but do they appeal enough to the players to warrant a subscription fee? Is that money really needed? I mean it’s a lot of money for additional coding and development (as for one person, in three months to the next update, it’s 45 bucks…almost the cost of a full fledged game!). Communities are great, it’s what makes MMOs fun because you can meet a lot of people…but are subs required to meet people? I’ve met people in free MMOs too. Competitive play? I think companies in general overcharge because they realize how passionate fans are about it, regardless of sub or free play, from what I’ve been hearing in comparing f2p and p2p.

            I don’t think I’ve really been aggressive, I think people are just very passionate and fans of the game and are defending it. Perhaps I should say now I am not attacking the game or SE. But by how people have responded in mixing up what I’m actually saying, I do believe people are letting emotions in the way here.

          • MogCakes

            Unique enough to require subs? For the type of experience that P2P offers, yes, they are – to me. To you, they may not be. Do you see how subjective this can be?

            Other MMOs are free but the experience they offer is not the same as the experience P2P MMOs offer, make absolutely no mistake about that, this is the defining reason. But again, it’s subjective – it may not be worth it to some because everyone has a different perception.

            The point of a business is profit, and the subs being at the price they are, is fulfilling exactly that, no doubt. However, part of it also goes to things like overhead, server maintenance, paying the staff, keeping the dev studio at that size, and funding new content. If Yoshida was PR spinning, people would be able to tell.

            Is paying a sub worth playing online with others – it depends on what the game offers. What kind of experience it offers. Again, this is subjective. Remember my first post? It’s worth it to me. It might not be worth it to you. All MMOs are NOT the same.

            Do all F2P MMOs overcharge – in fact yes, they do. Not all F2P games overcharge, but MMOs, certainly. MapleStory, for example, uses the Gachapon system, which is essentially online gambling. People can pump hundreds of dollars into it in one go trying to get an item. TERA is another example. Special costumes and mounts you can buy, items, etc. Cost a shitload of money, up to $60 for a ‘pack’ of items. It is very much the same end goal with different methodology here. The big differentiation is F2P often abuses the addiction factor, more so than P2P.

            MMOs are different from standard games, they’re considered a service more than a game. More of a sandbox world than a goal-driven game with an end. Continuing operation of that world and developing new content with a large team who all need salaries requires money. Are there any F2P MMOs that have a large dev team and release patches and new content on a regular, planned schedule?

            You’re abstracting XIV into a -very- out of context jumble of parts. Looking at it from a purely content-based perspective is a narrow way to view the game. You’re ignoring the experience factor.

            All logic and facts have already been pointed out here, and have been in every P2P vs F2P debate. Beyond guaranteed and consistent content updates, patches, a stable dev team, server upkeep, what is there to argue except the experience? And there is a large gulf in experiences between P2P and F2P. And as you know, experience is subjective.

            What actual points of the game are you looking for? What actual points of F2P games make them worth having to deal with the cash shop, advertisements and temptations to spend tons of money in one go, and communities that come and go with incredible frequency? It’s subjective. You’re not going to find factual points there.

            You haven’t been very clear in what exactly you’re trying to look for, but now that I see it I know why the response is what it has been, what you’re seeking is not there. You’re looking for pure facts, quantifiable information that can be used to justify P2P or F2P, but that is an incorrect way to try and assess that debate.

          • TalesOtaku21

            I probably haven’t sounded ‘clear’ because the initial debate wasn’t even p2p vs f2p, you people made it into that. My original debate was that $15 is a lot of money when you start adding it up, and the received content doesn’t seem worth it half the initial price of the game every month (my apologies I thought it was 60, it’s actually 30-40 now, which makes the 15 dollars a month worse). Granted, the reason the game is cheaper is because of the subscription, but it still doesn’t add very evenly. The only difference I’m seeing here is that I’m very sticky on my money and other people are lot more loose about where their money is going. If I don’t think it’s a good deal I won’t go through with it. That’s when I started wondering if the price was really a good price. I really don’t care what the company needs to pay for so long as I am getting my money’s worth. I am the consumer, not the CEO. It’s not my job to pay their staff’s compensation, it’s my job to be satisfied with the product I bought. It’s kinda like the scenario that if your favorite brand of milk was expired and the other brand was good as new but you don’t like that brand as much…which one would you favor? Would some people just tolerate the expiration date for their favorite, or would some people be willing to not care about brand? It’s an interesting concept seems based on personality. MMOs do like to train you though.

            But I see you are partial to p2p by how you defend it so strongly. “Other MMOs are free but the experience they offer is not the same as the experience P2P MMOs offer, make absolutely no mistake about that, this is the defining reason.” That opinion is absolutely fine, I’ve even said before if you wanna pay it, go right ahead. However, you admitted yourself it’s an opinion yet you treat it like fact. “P2P MMOs are better than free” is what I heard. I wanted to point that out so you can improve for future arguments.

            I am really not ignoring anything, you just sound very bias. I’ve made friends in free to play games. In fact I’ve made more friends because the community in f2p games seemed a lot less competitive and more open to newer members and not as experienced players, and much less interested in developing their ‘e-peen’. These ‘nice’ players don’t just exist in f2p games, just they seem more likely to due to there being less competition.

            P2p games also seem much more focused on end game content and ‘raid battles’. If you like that kinda thing, I can see why you’d prefer MMOs that focus on it. Is it worth paying money for? Extra end game content and “new” bosses? Using GW2 again because they prove to be great examples, Anet comes out with new content and story lines and don’t seem to require subs. They do lack some end game content, but there is still a lot to do to avoid getting too bored. Jumping puzzles, WvW, dungeons, events, it’s still a game with a ton of content and I don’t have to pay a cent. Why is that? The shop doesn’t even seem necessary nor overpriced. You can buy items with gold, or craft whatever you need. Since the game scales your level, you can enjoy the entire world without being forced into the end game. GW2 just made a system that works well enough, I guess, that other MMOs are using its elements in their own systems. Some of which you gotta pay for.

            Like I have a friend who tried FF14, enjoyed it for a little bit, and eventually didn’t want to pay more for the subs and went back to GW2. He’s been enjoying it since.

            I’ve never said you are wrong for paying. I’ve just been counter arguing any arguments that someone arises directed at me with more logic. There isn’t really a ‘right or wrong’ here because it’s your money and I really don’t care what you do with it. Just don’t tell me that P2P are ‘significantly better’ because that’s very opinionated and has no real merit.

            As for me personally, since you asked so nicely, I’m not into subs generally, because I’m paying a fee and my money won’t actually bring me anything that’s worth it. We’ll take Netflix again. A DVD is about $20 (for math sake I rounded). If Netflix charged more than that amount for a restricted list of movies, I wouldn’t feel that’s a fair exchange. For $8 a month, that’s about half the price of a single DVD despite having cloud access to a large quantity of newer movies, and a ton of easily accessible older movies. Sounds like a better deal. For the record, I don’t even have Netflix. xD

            I get why you guys like MMOs that you happen to have to pay for, like FF14 for example and whatever else you may play. My initial point was wondering if the fee was really worth the service. Everyone got defensive and spilled out a lot of arguments. Sorry if I offended anyone as I have nothing against SE or the game. :/ Was just pointed out that it’s a lot of money (half the price of the game, each month). I would expect half of the full game every month then.

            MMOs in general seem like money sinks but services in general can’t be actually determined the worth of, so…it’s a gamble.

          • MogCakes

            MMOs ‘train’ us do they? Or perhaps people consider the value offered to be worth the cost. If you’re going to post drivel like that you WILL get a heated response, and deservedly so.

            P2P IS a significantly better experience – to me and many others. I never said it is objectively better in every sense, but it certainly offers many benefits over the other business models and there is NO denying or refuting that. You cannot measure this purely in monetary value either. If you’re going to assert that P2P is equal or lesser worth compared to alternative business models then that’s your opinion, but recognize that it is so.

            You were wondering if it’s worth the service – people gave you their opinions, but you apparently want an objective statement which is impossible for anyone to give, and you wonder why people get defensive when you’re being fairly arrogant in your own assertions.

            Again with the ‘but…it’s so much money!’ argument. It isn’t a lot of money to a lot of people who don’t play a great many games a year. Or to a lot of people in general it seems.

            MMOs are games that are services. You’ve answered your own question with that last line which is actually quite funny, and is exactly what everyone has been trying to tell you the entire time.

          • Yuta Takemoto

            “Another example I’ve thought of is the comparison to Netflix. Netflix
            basically charges you a month for a DVD price to have access to stream a
            large assortment of movies. It’s a neat deal due to the access, as you
            are basically getting movies for free. I couldn’t really see the
            comparison, because you are paying to play a game you already bought,
            paying three times the actual amount of the game in a year for
            tri-monthly updates and end bosses (assuming you are at endgame…you
            still have to pay to get there). It seems like a lot of money for not a
            good deal.”

            I find this part amusing. You never actually buy an MMO. You buy a single use license. You want to keep using Netflix (service)? You pay the service fee. You want to keep playing X MMO (service)? You pay the service fee. It is the same thing. Why not pay one time for Netflix and never have to again? Why aren’t you confused about that. Double standard yahoooooooooooooooooo!

          • TalesOtaku21

            You never buy Netflix. You do buy FF14 for 30-40 dollars (for a basic version, depending on the system). That would be like saying you pay to download Netflix (you don’t, btw). For FF14, not only did you buy a physical copy, you can’t even use the physical copy you just purchased without paying them more money. It’s like buying a toy then paying the company to open the box. How that isn’t even a little annoying to anyone else kinda astonishes me, but okay.

            I’ll also point out that Netflix is now $8 a month for an incredibly selection of movies on the cloud for instant stream. FF14 is $10-15 a month to socially interact in a virtual world. Why so much more? You get to play a game, but plenty of other companies create ‘new content’ for a flat rate. This is because they make the new content, then sell the content to make a profit on the content they just made. But what about servers? Iunno, lots of other companies seem to have huge servers and still don’t require a monthly fee. I’m not saying one is better, I just like to know I’m getting my money’s worth.

            It still feels the biggest reason there’s a service fee is because dedicated people will pay it under the assumption they’ll be rewarded or they just don’t know any better.

          • MogCakes

            Or because they enjoy the content that there is and the guaranteed content that is coming thanks to a steady update schedule. If you’re pulling the ‘you only pay because you don’t know any better’ card then you’re showing your true colors with that statement. If you’re here to harass people you’ve certainly accomplished it. You have been incredibly bull-headed from the start and refuse to acknowledge anyone’s points but your own. What’s astonishing to me is you don’t seem capable of even wrapping your head around the idea that other people may think differently about this without being mentally retarded or ‘not knowing any better’.

          • TalesOtaku21

            Not at all. I’ve played MMOs and understand that it is a very open world. Likewise, I’ve played drop in games and other online games not styled as MMOs but give very similar experiences. While MMO is a classification, I don’t believe it is the only type of game to give such an experience as social interactions and experiences! My point of view has been if subscriptions are really worth pumping into a game, though, not to put down what makes MMOs special to you. If you could get it for free, or cheaper, to get the same experience, why wouldn’t you?

            Since the world cannot be free of charge, my biggest concern with subs and any method of service payment is that due to being intangible, the amount charged can become extreme, especially due to MMOs targeting obsessive tendencies, without must resistance. I already think the charge is a little absurd.

          • MogCakes

            MMOs are not purely about the social interactions, the social aspect is a major part but only one part of the experience. Why not for free? Because of reality. The reality is the dev team needs to be staffed by people, in this case a lot of people, who don’t want to lose their jobs because of a bad month in revenue. The reality is people like it when you have to commit to a game instead of being able to come and go and have people disappear randomly because they had no attachment to the game, fracturing the player base. There are stark differences that you are ignoring here.

            If it all boils down to ‘it’s too expensive’ for you, then perhaps paid MMOs just aren’t for you. You aren’t considering the time investment people can put into an MMO – if they’re playing this then they probably aren’t buying and playing many other $60 games that come out during any given year.

          • Blag Blah

            I believe I missed out a important point too. I’m still subbed, because the next major content patch, 2.2 with raids is out tomorrow on the 27th March. That’s the main reason why I’m still subbed. I’m always in touch with friends in raid with whatsapp since day 1. Skype is not needed.

            Player motivation varies, but my personal interest is conquering new encounters in a raid. “Discovering” new places/getting shinies are not really my priority. When they continue to churn out content to satisfy my interest, then I will contiue to subscribe. It’s like just paying for a new game, when they release updates. Whether it’s worth it is up to the individual.

            In my mind, the current trend of players wanting F2P is without a doubt due to people wanting something for nothing. They do not see the shallow experience that comes with F2P games. My time is limited, that is why I’m paying for a quality experience in a P2P.

            I certainly know what I’m looking for, but do you? :)

          • TalesOtaku21

            Well people here seem under the assumptions of things like I hate MMOs and want things for free when all I’ve been doing is pointing out that a subscription may not be that great a thing, and possibly overpriced as well. I’m not expecting a company to say that mmos should be free completely. While some of the article may have merit, some may be pure marketing bullcrap. I enjoy speculating on things like that.

            It could be people just want the game they paid for, because what you call shallow other people may enjoy more than enough.

            I feel like you are twisting buzzwords words to justify what makes what you like as great and turn the argument on me… I can tell some people are getting super defensive for these p2p MMOs. >>

          • MogCakes

            It’s always been a heated debate and to be honest you haven’t been helping things with the way you’ve worded your posts. Regarding XIV in particular, Yoshida has always been transparent and forthcoming with game developments and is widely loved by the fanbase. Accusing him of basically spinning PR is going to get you a pretty heated response.

          • TalesOtaku21

            I like Namco and Hideo Baba. I’m not about to just assume businessmen never PR just because I like them. That’s being a fanboy and generally disliked by the larger community.

            Perhaps but I’ve yet to be aggressive or personally attack others for what they enjoy. I’ve only been considering possibilities and theories and ideas and logic.

            PRing is NOT EVIL let’s not get that assumption. It’s a tactic of survival for a business. It’s not frowned upon, but best not to believe it doesn’t exist. Basically PRing doesn’t make you a bad businessman.

          • MogCakes

            Of course not. Yoshida’s being pretty damn transparent here however while still remaining within boundaries. It’s fairly easy to tell when a businessman is running off his PR schtick. The arguments made for P2P vs F2P are true here. TERA started out as a P2P game, and were forced to go F2P. Want to know why Yoshida’s well loved by the XIV community? Because he doesn’t try to spin. There is no spin in this interview. People don’t love him just because they’re fanboys, they like the guy precisely because he is transparent and frank. PR spin IS evil. PR is not.

          • Blag Blah

            They’re “defensive” about P2P titles is because they know how shallow F2P titles are in their experience, or especially having to end up paying more in a quality F2P title compared to P2P when someone wants the full experience.

            I also want to mention, in a P2P MMO, you are mostly paying a sub mainly to see the end-game content, namely raids. If you are the type of gamer who just levels and explore the world and stops, or considers getting to Max level as completion, then yes, paying a P2P might not be for you.

          • TalesOtaku21

            So 15 dollars a month gets you end game content?

            In comparison, I play Pokemon after the game’s completion. Online, in battles, for free…um…well whatever.

            F2P is shallow too? That is just matter of opinion though. I know people who enjoy both pay and free mmos. They just dedicate more to pay mmos because they are paying monthly. People are more inclined to dedicate more to what they are paying for, it seems.

            Seems more like an illogical war going on instead of actual consideration of facts. Pay more money, get end game raids. I just wondered if this was actually true.

          • Blag Blah

            I continue to play Titanfall after completion of it’s campaign mode too…Online, in battles, for free too.. well whatever.

            Also your comments is a tell-tale sign you are not a end game MMOer, but more like a tourist. Then yes I would agree that F2P games would suit someone of your playstyle more, compared to paying a sub in a P2P.

          • MogCakes

            Everyone will have different personal reasons for justifying the sub beyond the business side of things. What he’s saying is pretty true though – not necessarily end-game, but continued content to clear with friends for new experiences. And yeah, people are more willing to dedicate to what they pay for, they’re more invested. F2P is pretty shallow in that people come and go very, very often.

          • Pyrofrost

            Well, I’m sure you realize I disagree with you, just like @talesotaku21:disqus understands that I disagree with his point of view concerning FFXIV. Our opinions on the matter aren’t exactly going to change either.

            So rather than dragging this out further, and continuing to beat a dead horse. Let us agree to disagree and move on, shall we.
            Also, know that while I do disagree, I respect your rights to your opinion on the matter and I will not insult you because of your point of view.

            This goes for your too TalesOtaku21 if you’re reading this. (btw, I’m also an avid Tales fan)

          • Blag Blah

            Thanks for reading my jumble. I still stand by what I have said, even though I know they have not been worded pleasantly, they presented a straight forward reasoning on the validity and comparison of P2P games like ARR.
            I’ve skimped through most of the comments and agree with you and Mogcakes fully. Both of you have put more viewpoints into perspective than I have could :)

          • TalesOtaku21

            I don’t actually have an opinion that f2p is ‘better’ than p2p in the first place, people just seemed to assume that. My original point was that 12-15 dollars a month sounds like a lot for a subscription to a game and whether it should really be that much, especially since they are getting $15 from thousands upon thousands of players. Plus that’s around how much WoW players pay, and WoW has been around CONSIDERABLY longer and is much more complex and popular due to its age and community. I get businesses make profits and there’s nothing wrong with that, I never even insulted SE nor said FF14 was a bad game.

            But heck yeah Tales of. =) Can’t wait for Xillia 2.

            Lol I’m also a girl.

          • MogCakes

            If you understand that businesses like steady profit then you’ve answered your own question. If you understand that many people find it to be a fair price then you’ve answered your own question. If you understand that ‘a lot’ is relative for many, many people then you’ve answered your own question. Your point, as it were, was one that is easily answered by a bit of thinking. Many of your posts have an arrogant tone to them so it’s not surprising you aren’t very well liked in the comments here.

          • TalesOtaku21

            That was a bit rude, btw,I don’t believe that there is actual quality differences unless you are particularly bias, there are just different rates and the regards of how much you plan to dedicate. For example, GW2 is a beautiful looking game, and I can enjoy it casually. I also have friends who are more into MMOs and still play GW2 more than FF14 or WoW even. Most of them being adults with bills to pay and want to avoid the sub fee and resist paying real money (in GW2, you can get plenty through grinding/crafting). That doesn’t make f2p BETTER because that’s opinionated. It’s just an option that’s available and many people, even competitive players, can prefer it that way.

            It is expensive for some people, others are willing to bypass the price due to dedication, and even others think $15 is chump change. I still think SE should have a ‘free’ option, least with a level cap.

          • MogCakes

            There is most definitely a quality difference, but the worth of that difference depends on the individual. SE offering a free option with what you’ve suggested wouldn’t go over well at all. You are speaking from a F2P/micro-transaction perspective, the exact opposite of what FFXIV’s current business model is. You’re not going to convince anybody or even open up a discussion, because it’s very clear you’re already invested in one idea. You demonstrate a basic misunderstanding of one of the elements that makes XIV popular.

      • http://twitter.com/#!/kaishou Kaishou

        lmao because making updates, server maintenance, bandwidth and etc cost no less than 15 dollars.

        • TalesOtaku21

          Let’s play with some numbers.

          About 7 million people play WoW, give or take.

          I believe the sub there is $15 a month.

          Meaning Blizzard gets on average $105,000,000 a month from all their subscribers.

          That’s 1,260,000,000 a year.

          Servers are very strained, but that’s a lot of money coming from the consumers’ pockets. More power to companies (which is why I asked if the person I replied to supported the company) for making profits, I’m not saying it’s wrong. I’m saying it’s hard for me to support since that money is coming from the consumers…it’s like the whole CoD thing. I don’t feel like I’m getting what I paid for.

          Let me put it to you this way.

          The game itself cost $60. That was the final retail price after development, shipping, etc costs were finalized through. That’s the finalized product.

          If you were to pay 15 dollars a month, in a year that equals 180 dollars.

          That’s three times the initial cost of the game.

          For DLC additions and the ability to play, you are paying three times the actual cost of the game.

          And that’s just you. There are millions of other users playing this game, and their money all goes to one place, especially since there are no third parties involved (generally, unless contract signed).

          I know that they have an internet market to keep up and a business to upkeep, but that is a lot of money no one is really accounting for because “15 dollars a month doesn’t seem that much”. Until you add it up and add up where it’s all going.

          Naturally it’s your money, you can do whatever you want with it, and I’m not against subs, just pointing out that the article above sounds like a lot of marketing of why they should charge you more than the game is worth, to ‘make updates’.

  • Mnstrzero00

    I love his argument but it still screws the consumer at the end. Most people are only going to have a couple of hours of free time every other month or so. To charge people $12 each month is ridiculous. And eventually the game isn’t even going to exist anymore. It sounds like a money sink.

    • Kumiko Akimoto

      It’s really not a lot.

      • TalesOtaku21

        It’s $144 a year. For a game you already purchased. And Square doesn’t even update monthly. The game will also eventually be outdated, making the entire concept a money sink.

        • Ferrick

          what are you talking about? square updates monthly

        • http://twitter.com/#!/kaishou Kaishou

          I’m not sure if you’re ignorant but you pretty much pay for new contents and a “pay-to-win” free environment.

          • TalesOtaku21

            Not sure if you’re a fanboy but your tone has been really annoying. Other MMOs, like GW, offers new experiences without having to pay a monthly fee. You can pay for extra stuff if you want, but it isn’t required. There should be a free option. I would try FF14 but I’m not paying for it, I don’t have the time to dedicate myself to it to make it feel like I’m getting my money’s worth.

            But ‘pay to win’ to me is just ‘pay to cheat’ to me. :P

          • MogCakes

            I can’t speak for anyone else but myself, but this is my take on it. I tried the beta and liked the lore, world, exploration, graphics, and gameplay (familiar, but in a new setting, not unlike how JRPGs used to be variants of the turn-based system in the PS1/2 eras) that ARR offered, and above all it had a narrative that I wanted to follow. So for me, investing $13 a month for the game is worth it, as I derive enjoyment from it. If I ever stop deriving enjoyment I’ll end my subscription. My viewpoint isn’t objective by any means, but sentimentality counts for a lot IMO.

          • TalesOtaku21

            Sure. My point still stands if the subscription is actually necessary, but it’s good you enjoy it.

          • MogCakes

            It isn’t necessary any more than F2P, but that wasn’t the point of my post nor was I addressing it. Since you brought it up though, P2P ensures a steady profit, which keeps SE heads from casting leery eyes at Yoshida.

          • MogCakes

            Also if you re-read the article Yoshida says straight up in his opening line that he doesn’t think it’s necessary so much as it’s a good choice to go with profit wise and stability wise over F2P. So I’m not entirely sure what you’re getting at here except to say P2P sucks and anyone paying for it is a sucker.

          • TalesOtaku21

            Don’t think I actually said that, but okay, you can accuse if it makes you feel better.

            My ‘actual necessary’, I mean if a subscription is needed for anything more than making the company a profit. The article makes it sound like it’s for the sake of the consumer in that SE can make updates and DLC additions and etc if they had subscriptions. Other games don’t force a subscription and are fine. Similar to my comparison before in that internet COULD be free but companies make you pay a monthly bill for it. It made me wonder if subscriptions are necessary at all. Like I’ve been saying, a free version could be included. Hopefully SE makes that inclusion some day because the game looks interesting but I can’t commit to a monthly fee.

            Sorry my argument is too complicated for you. :/

          • MogCakes

            Updates and DLC are a bonus to P2P, but certainly not the main benefactor. Other games that go F2P are not all fine, Yoshida’s points have merit here. Your argument isn’t complicated at all, and there are implications by using words such as ‘necessary’, something Yoshida was keen to avoid at the start of his answer. You’re also making a lot of assumptions about the running costs and other expenses. A large portion of the sub fee is definitely profit, but a consistent revenue stream ensures the ability to keep staff onboard with some modicum of job security. It’s basic business sense. You can insinuate and be passive aggressive as much as you like.

          • http://twitter.com/#!/kaishou Kaishou

            That’s exactly my point. The fact that this mentality exist for quiet a lot of players in f2p makes it sort of unbalanced. Sure you don’t have a choice but chances are that you are at a “disadvantage” compare to those who pay. Then again GW2 cash been pretty…messy these days.

            Fanboy is such an overused term these days. I get reason behind monthly payments concept and it’s con/pro. I don’t go throwing statement like everything should be free because we already paid for it internally. From what I read, you think your ideals should be universal to everything but it really just doesn’t work all that well.

          • TalesOtaku21

            You are at a disadvantage if you are forced to pay but you aren’t that competitive too. Either way players will lose something then. Companies attempt to please the most players possible to spread their market, so I’m surprised that there is a forced subscription.

            I said ‘not sure if you are a fanboy’, so I’m not sure why you are being defensive. I associate fanboyism with defending something without actual logical reasoning and refusing to acknowledge the flaws. You just showed signs of this in your posts, hence my speculation.

            I never said ‘everything should be free’, please don’t make up accusations without any real evidence. I said there should be a free option for players who want to experience the game without being forced to pay excess every month. There are other possible approaches too, such as releasing updates that are optional to pay for, or yearly subscriptions.

            I don’t, actually, you just disagree with my ‘ideals’ and thus that seems to anger you enough that you get offensive. Not everyone is just going to agree to throw money at a video game without actually knowing what you are about to get or if the monthly sub is even a fair charge. Since I speculated these possibilities, without bias opinion of Square Enix, I’ve brought my ideas to the table in curiosity of how people will respond. The reason you may think I believe my ideals are ‘universal’ is because I’ve yet to roll over and acknowledge that p2p>f2p (I think that’s what is implied, which wasn’t even my initial argument) because I’ve yet to be met with a compelling argument that influences my thought process.

            Basically my argument is still “that’s a lot of money” and the only real addressed point has been “but I want to play and need to pay to do so I’ll just justify it”.

            Some points have been pretty decent, such as paying for servers, but it still feels incredibly overcharged. 5 bucks a month seems a lot more fair to me. Within a year, that’s the price of a new game, to which SE should have released enough content to be comparable to buying a new game.

            I’ve also yet to tell anyone that they are wrong or that they shouldn’t pay to play this game or even that this game is bad and SE should feel bad. People seem defensive anyway when I’m not even attacking anything. xD

        • SolRevr

          It’s the same as paying for a Netflix subscription. You are paying for a service, an experience. People are willing to pay for an experience that they enjoy.

          If you like to travel, that costs lots of money and is an experience. You get no physical, tangible object by taking a trip somewhere, but that memory and experience will live with you.

          I own a car. It will eventually be outdated, and is a money sink.

          • TalesOtaku21

            You’re stretching it, but I get your point. When you pay for a service, it’s to pay for other factors. For Netflix, it’s to pay for servers and Cloud and the rights to the movies. For traveling, it’s for gas, materials, the paychecks of the employees, etc. You aren’t paying for memories, you’re paying to cover the costs of the expenses on the part of the company. In return, you get a service. It’s an intangible product.

            My point was it seems kinda overpriced and will eventually be outdated and useless. Although, a car is a tangible product, not a service, so isn’t that comparable. By money sink, I mean something that you pour a lot of money into without getting much back from it, since I feel you are paying quite a lot for a service that doesn’t give much back. That, naturally, is a personal opinion. Doesn’t mean the game is bad, it means it feels overcharged.

          • Ferrick

            while you got the logic correct, why is it that for this instance you don’t use the same logic? we’re basically $13~15 (depending on contract) to obtain a service as an intangible product.

            FFXIV in all technicality is also a tangible product, where we pay for it’s service, and in return we get our money’s worth of entertainment, the concept is no different from subscribing for netflix.

          • TalesOtaku21

            I am. It’s the same concept, if you pay attention I’ve been focusing on the service’s actual worth and whether what you are paying for is actually worth it, since other MMOs are free to play and don’t…seem that different to me.

            I AM a casual player, so my idea would vastly differ to someone who is very willing to pay whatever necessary to get the ‘most’ out of the content. It’s no different from DLC. The only reason I could comprehend the need for such a high fee is due to servers. But Game Freak can support Pokebank on five dollars a year. Yes, these are differing servers in regard to power, but they are still supporting millions of players and companies like Blizzard are making waaaaaaay more than GameFreak. My point is I feel it’s a little too ‘waaaaaay’ much.

            Here’s the biggest problem. I’m not completely against subs, but the problem here is the mash between a tangible and intangible product. You bought the game, and on top of that, have to pay for the service to…play your game. So basically you paid for the same game multiple times. With Netflix, you can pay for a service to rent movies. While you can rent physical copies, you are not forced to. You can just use the service to watch as many movies as you want (as provided). You did not pay for a tangible product.

            A tangible product belongs to you. It’s like Nintendo threatening to brick your 3DS for hacking. They legally cannot do that as the system belongs to you…you can do whatever you want to it. Online servers are a different story. So while the service is understandable, if pretty damn costly, I don’t get why I have to also buy the game on top of it. There should be a free option to play the game you originally bought or just be a service.

          • Ferrick

            not saying that you aren’t focusing on that segment, however you’ve only been denying the part where people can find enjoyment even in p2p as you keep questioning or saying “it’s not worth it” to it. And there are alot of difference between p2ps and f2ps, having played it myself as well, but there’d be too much details for me to include, but most of them are service side problems.

            and apart from servers, the developers, the moderators and the rest of the team needs food as well, and you may deny this, but the reality is that even games like GW2 need people’s money to keep the server afloat and pay their staffs, and GW2 and the like gets this money from people who’re willing to spend huge amounts of cash to trade in gems for gold or items. My point is that you over think it a little ‘toooooo’ much

          • TalesOtaku21

            You can think that. However, the accounting part is a little much. You are assuming you are paying for entertainment, and you aren’t. You already paid for the game that should be giving you the entertainment. You really don’t HAVE to be paying a monthly fee, and the fact SE is forcing that charge is quite much for me. There are games out there that don’t require constant updating and monthly payments that I enjoy.

            I played GW and never had a service issue, played WoW and never had a service issue, both games felt relatively similar to me besides extra content in WoW, which I mostly figured was because WoW has been around for much longer.

            The difference with GW that you pointed out yourself is that people CAN pay but aren’t FORCED to. It’s more a privilege than an obligation. You enjoy the game, and can pay more to enjoy more of it. That’s still annoying to me, but makes a bit more sense in the long run.

            I never said once ‘it’s not worth it’. I said it’s a lot of money for what doesn’t seem like worth the change you pump into it.

          • Ferrick

            let’s just agree to disagree on that, as i get the feeling that we’ll never agree regardless what we say.

            lets just take GW and GW2 out of the picture for a while on this, since the two are B2P games, i’m talking about F2P games, like you must’ve heard about vindictus right? that game handled by Nexon. Yeah, i was hacked out of nowhere and lost a shitload of high level equipments and money, so i decided to take a screenshot of the IP address that was on my account before and told nexon that someone had hacked my account, and posting the proof of the hackers identity in the forum, instead of helping me, they banned me under the pretense of “Flaming and wrong board” even though it wasn’t a flame post, and it was posted in technical support – account help, my tickets was ignored as well and now my nexon account has gone to dust after 2 years worth of hours was placed in it for other games.

            And that wasn’t the point i was making, what i meant is that regardless whether you payed or didn’t, someone else did, and that amount is higher than what we pay monthly too.

            this is subjective for people since their definition of “fun” is different, i for one enjoy XIV for what it is and i do think it is worth paying $13 bucks for 3 months

          • TalesOtaku21

            Okay. =)

            That seems more like Nexon is just a piece of shit company, not because their game is free to play.

            I still consider GW a free game, since all you pay for is the initial game. So I associate there being no fee. I’m aware there are games that can be freely downloaded. It’s all about quality, which just made me think if the subscription fee is actually that required. There are good games that don’t require a subscription to actually be played.

            Like MapleStory is free. You can buy features, but the game itself is still free (even to download!). It’s very simplistic but still a very fun MMO with good servers. SE is making it sound like they are making the game p2p out of necessity when it sounded more like they are taking advantage of the system. Just my thought process.

            SE should really consider a free option for people who just wanna enjoy the game even if they don’t get all the same features as premium members.

          • Ferrick

            now that’s something we can agree on, nexon is shit, but that aside, that’s what i meant by overall service.
            LOTRO is free as well, you can buy features, but the game itself is still free (to download). It’s very lore based and also a lovely game for LOTR fans, however it’s stuck behind a paywall to proceed to later dungeons, or to unlock one of the classes. Frankly my thought process is that F2Ps actually cost more in the end as i stopped playing gacha-based f2ps after hearing my friend actually spending $5000 per month on a f2p game called Cosmic break (friendly advice, do stay away from this game).

            Honestly, they shouldn’t =/, it’s actually a bigger hypocrisy to use the free, freemium and premium members policy as they do have to pay again just to be able to play later contents, and the feckers of a gold selling bot would spawn again

          • TalesOtaku21

            Except League of Legends is a free to play game and that game is incredibly popular. You can pay for extra services if you want but you do not have to.

            Many games are money sinks/frauds that hope to drag you in and make you pay more than the actual worth of the game. The difference here is that it’s not required. Not saying it’s better or worse because that’s up for debate, just pointing out the difference here. You can play it for free, and you can pay extra for extra features. You are playing the game you paid for (or downloaded) while paying extra for other content. It’s just the DLC concept that many companies use nowadays. Is this a good thing? There’s some controversy there.

            I’ve played GW since release on and off and spent maybe…20 bucks. Technically I got a card for the cash shop for my birthday so I didn’t pay anything. And I’ve enjoyed every second of it.

            So it may just be what appeals to people but forcing a monthly charge makes me wonder if it’s required.

            Also you are confusing monthly fees for set fees. Cash shop =/= subscription.

          • Ferrick

            Except that LoL is a game where you will pay money eventually to play as other characters or the characters you like when they’re out of the weekly free roulette

            It really depends on the game, some games eventually require you to sink some money into the game to continue.

            I’ve playeed GW2 since release and stopped 5 months after. Technically I’ve spent 30-ish for cosmetics (dat assassin look (o)/), and the reason on why i stopped was because it was too easy for me to beat the game and pvp

            while it may look like it’s forcing, it’s technically not, you can pay 12 bucks for the game itself and enjoy 30 days for free, that’s when you decide if you want to continue or not

            And i’m not confusing the two, Subscriptions are still cheaper than cash shop because Static > variable charges

          • TalesOtaku21

            I’m pretty sure you can pay for competitive stuff with in game currencies though. :/

            This isn’t really a f2p>p2p discussion (never stated I prefer one or the other), my initial thought was if subscription fees actually paid for the content provided.

            Think topic is being skewed.

          • Ferrick

            nope, some f2ps doesn’t allow that

            it never was, but lets not go there… that shit’s been done way over too much.

            i agree, let’s just end it here, it’s starting to get late as well, so… i’ll just agree to disagree with your views on p2ps

          • TalesOtaku21

            I think you mean ‘subscriptions’. Well, possibly over charged subscriptions. 15m is kind of a lot.

        • Loli Summoner

          I think it updates every three months and little patches in between the months before the big patches, also I read you other commits saying you want to try FF14? Well you should try it out.
          When you first buy the game you get a 30day trial and that’s more than enough to beat the main story, gear up a little and get your relic before the trail ends.

        • Kumiko Akimoto

          and if it was f2p it’d be more then that and content would be held back.
          So no the game will not be outdated and it’s completely possible to keep it fresh.

    • SolRevr

      Most people that play subscription MMOs spend more than “a couple of hours every month or so”. Even if you were to play it for 10 hours per week, which is pretty low by MMO standards, is that not worth $12 a month?

      Often times people that play MMOs only play that one game. This is one reason I don’t play them very often because I have tons of other games I want to play and can’t devote all gaming time to one game. Is that not worth $12 a month for the hours of enjoyment. It’s pretty cheap entertainment if you ask me. Going to a 3D movie is at least that much in a big city.

      I can tell you I rarely play MMOs and spend way more than $12 a month on my gaming habit.

  • Spirit Macardi

    He says that having a subscription model is ideal from a business standpoint, since it ensures a steady flow of income. However, it is NOT ideal from a consumer standpoint. It means that you’re forced to spend the same amount of money every month, regardless of if you have any interest in the new content, or even regardless of if there is new content during that period.

    I’m at the end game, but there’s still optional stuff I haven’t done just because I don’t have any desire to do it. It would be ideal for me if I could just pay for the stuff I want and screw the rest, since why should I have to fork over money for things I’ll never use? It also makes me feel like I HAVE to play in order to get the most of my dollar for the month, rather than simply making me want to play to have fun.

    Yeah the F2P model is more unsteady in terms of income, but it does let you see what sort of content that the players most want and gives devs the chance to focus more on that. In other words, it means that the money gained each month is actually earned and not just exchanged automatically.

    • Kumiko Akimoto

      Umm actually it’s much more reliable to pay month by month to have content locked and have a cash shop. It’s optional of course but at the end of the day depending on how important or non important the cash shop items end up being you’ll spend alot more then if you just had p2p

      • SolRevr

        Yeah, I’d rather pay the fee and have the game feel like a real game. LotRO is the only F2P game I’ve ever cared for, but even it is pretty expensive once you really get into it. You easily need to spend more than a monthly sub in F2P money to make the game reasonably playable (number of bag slots, coin limit, etc).

        I find cash shops to be pretty despicable and overpriced. I will never buy xp potions or outfits. If they slow down the xp progression because they want you to buy $5 xp potions I think that is super crappy.

        • Kumiko Akimoto

          Well I like a lot of f2p considering most p2p go f2p and there are more f2p then p2p now.
          I enjoy the ones that don’t put to much importance on itself.

      • Spirit Macardi

        Yeah, I may end up spending more, but here’s the thing: I’d be the one in control of that choice. If I spend more, it’s because I decided that the content for sale was worth it. That element of personal control accounts for a lot, and means that I have no one to blame but myself for my spending.

        • Kumiko Akimoto

          But you can still be in control of p2p models it’s not like you subscribe and you have to keep with it for ever if you ever feel like taking a break you can always cancel in advance.
          So you don’t have to spend more than what you bought for the game originally especially if you take advantage of free month deals.

          • TalesOtaku21

            I think what Spirit is saying is that he would rather have the ability to play the game without having to fork over cash for it. You aren’t at all in control of p2p models. Even if you don’t play excessively or to be super competitive, you have to pay money. And if you decide to take a break, you have to cancel your subs. Even then you dance around with ‘deals’ when f2p systems have sales for their cash shops too.

            Both systems have their ups and downs for everyone, but I don’t believe one system is necessarily superior to the other. Even if you personally prefer the other you can’t just ignore the negatives of that system and how it affects others.

            I still feel like, subs or ‘DLC’ (including cash shop), online games (and many services in general, looking at you Comcast) eat away at wallets without much discretion. Being a service means you can’t really weigh what you are actually getting out of the game and whether what you are paying is worth it. While people may think differently, to which it’s your money and do what you want with it, I don’t believe that the updates being made or how well the servers are stabilized requires twice the initial price of the game over a year…just from me. 15 bucks feels like an overcharge!

          • Kumiko Akimoto

            How is having the ability to cancel before paying any not equal up to being in control?
            Having the full game at disposal is more then enough to justify 15 bucks.

  • flameraver64

    Really hoping they don’t go the route of WoW and add a cash shop while still requiring a sub fee. If I remember correctly, FFXI doesn’t have a cash shop and still has a sub. If you’re going to be charging a sub, you shouldn’t have a cash shop, that’s it.

    The retainers for an extra fee is pushing it a bit. I don’t mind too much, but hopefully they don’t go beyond that and start adding more paid items.

    • MogCakes

      I think Yoshida was tip-toeing around it to not incense investors here. He mentioned that it would have to be inline with the game’s balance, and while that may not phase investors anyone who plays MMOs knows that almost any cash shop item that isn’t purely aesthetic can be abused. In all likelihood the only items that will be available for purchase will probably be stuff like race/look changers.

  • Alexander Aubert

    but $10 each month? does that mean you only make this game for super rich people?

  • http://watercrown.info/ Ryusui

    I’ve subscribed to ARR since September of last year and I like the way it works right now. Like new patches getting the same kind of fanfare as full-on expansions. :3

    If that’s what my $13 a month buys, hey, I say stick with the subscription model.

  • Jonah Paley

    For some reason my previous comment disappeared (maybe it’ll come back later? I don’t think it broke any rules…), but the gist of it was that I’m fine with them selling Fantasia and any minions that are no longer available (beats buying a whole soundtrack just for the minion) for real cash. I’m just worried that it’ll be a slippery slope, and that Square Enix might try and pressure Yoshi-P to include a Pay-To-Play model. (I don’t believe in “They wouldn’t be THAT dumb” anymore, not with SE.)

    • Amine Hsu Nekuchan

      …SE hasn’t done much to inspire faith in their intelligent business decisions in recent years…

      • Jonah Paley

        I know. I’m still mad about the sheer nerve of them making All The Bravest.

    • Ferrick

      as for fantasia, it seems that many people were requesting for it, that’s why in their latest Q&A live stream they said that they are planning to implement it to be purchasable from mogstation

  • harmonyworld

    basically, if the game is legit fun, price won’t matter.

    • Anko Is Furious (King T.G.P)

      That type of mentality is what helps companies like Konami get away with selling demos (Shots fired at MGS GZ lol).

      • http://www.ihasnowebsitez.com Satonaka CP-Four

        I so far have put 10-11 hours into my copy of Ground Zeroes in all the “content it contains” and have barely begun feeling the ‘plateau’ effect of “hmm, I think i’m getting close of putting this game down” but not just yet.

        Considering a typical 10 hour story/campaign mode in other games that have WAY more ‘game’ to them compared to GZ I must say myself with all seriousness and knowing others have not felt the same effect:

        “I believe I’ve gotten my money’s worth.”

        • TalesOtaku21

          That’s okay for you personally and I’m glad you enjoy the game, but the fact still stands that they got away with selling a portion of a game for $30 dollars. Other games like Borderlands 2, Last of Us, and Bioshock Infinite had DLC campaigns that were as long, even longer than GZ for half that price. Just another example of ‘we’re charging more than we should because you people will buy it’. I’m really hoping this doesn’t become the trend.

          • http://www.ihasnowebsitez.com Satonaka CP-Four

            True, the price was steep; the way I was looking at it personally was the idea that since Koji-nami had to basically make the FOX engine from scratch, I been telling people that this to me feels like an “alternative form of a kickstarter”

            Where indies and in a more recent example, Inafune, they have to kickstart to get the $ to fund their game since they’re doing it without major backing from a major studio.

            Kojima Productions has the money, but they need JUST a tad bit more to cover the costs… my own guess is that the FOX engine really tanked their funds to a dangerous low and this whole “The fans wanted a taste of MGS5 sooner rather than later, therefore 2 ‘games’” interview doesn’t sell it to me fully 100%.

            I still to this day don’t buy that reason he came out with but I really can’t argue with the man when the tidbit he has released thus far gave me that much actual playtime knowing that the rest of the game is gonna (hopefully) deliver that “200 fold” as he stated prior (yeah, im denying one interview and accepting another one in it’s near entirety… I guess i just had that much fun with GZ’s XD)

            But yeah, should this business practice spread to other franchises is something I really don’t see as a good thing, because other companies aren’t gonna bother with making new game engines or doing something on that kind of level to even warrant the “Paid demo” future everyone is dreading as of right now.

            Sad truth is we as consumers allowed the “DLC era” to come home and roost, NAMCO being one of the worst offenders, if not capcom in this practice during the last console generation. The one thing we DO need to do now however is create enough of an outcry so other companies don’t feel as if this is the next phase in gaming that they can take advantage of because you and I sure as hell know that although Kojima Productions made an entirely new game engine for their game, other companies aren’t even gonna come close to putting in the effort and will simply try to sell their ‘demo’s for 20-30 bucks O_o…

          • TalesOtaku21

            I actually wouldn’t doubt that Kojima Productions released the ‘demo’ because fans were getting their mouths dry. And for a nifty profit making to fund the actual project. But then, yeah, that’s kinda how the DLC bull happened. When companies realize they can exploit to make money, they will do it, generally anyway. There’s actually a lot of research and such that people have done around whether or not consumers are actually getting their money’s worth.

          • Mr_SP

            The problem with that argument is that’s not what’s happening. Kickstarter games are there with a normal price:content ratio, and paying extra is either a choice, or comes with benefits. As such, Konami didn’t get donations from it’s fans, it charged quite a lot of money for a game that wasn’t very large. The context and choices involved are the deciding factor.

            Other companies have made new engines to run their games on, and have done so without breaking their budget. If Kojima ran his company dry with the Fox Engine, then why do the consumers need to suffer for his inability to manage his company’s funds?

            As for DLC, players, like with every game, need to make decisions on what’s an acceptable price to pay for the product offered. DLC, in and of itself, is not bad. But companies need to pitch to the consumer why this DLC is worth buying.

  • TalesOtaku21

    As interesting as this game sounds, plus I’ve seen my brother play it and it looks pretty good…I stay away from subscriptions. I already paid for the game, I don’t see why I need to continue paying to play the game I bought. Keep in mind you aren’t the only consumer paying ten dollars a month. When you think about all the players and multiply that by ten, it gets absurd.

    I’m enjoying Guild Wars 2 a lot, and I don’t have to pay a subscription, and they update with very cool features quite often and keep the game very balanced and enjoyable. It has its flaws, but for not having a subscription, it does well, and remains appealing even in the midst of competitive updates. So, I really don’t buy the whole “we need money to keep updating”.

    I get what they are trying to market, but it sounds like a bunch of hogwash to make consumers feel bad and throw money at them.

    • Ferrick

      I’m pretty sure that keeping the servers up is part of that “money to keep updating part”, and GW2 makes use of microtransactions to do those as well, though i’m not quite sure about the “balanced” part on GW2, having played GW2 myself and wrecked players in wvwvw

      • TalesOtaku21

        They make new updates to balance the classes as people find ways to exploit different systems and combos.

        The point is that other companies can make updates to their games and keep up their servers without a 10-15 dollar monthly fee from millions of users. That adds up.

        Kinda like how Google made free internet and ATT are freaking out because people are realizing they don’t have to pay for them.

        • Ferrick

          but the balance wasn’t on a monthly patch either, and it took a while for it to be implemented as well.

          cash shop is what keeps them alive

          Google fiber-Kansas: Free Internet: $0/month (for at least seven years) + $300 construction fee

          • TalesOtaku21

            You’re digging deeper than I am here.

            I’m not saying it should be completely free. For example, they should just give you the game and service for nothing. Some games do that but still survive on donations or cash items.

            It’s still not a monthly subscription that you are forced to pay.

            You are looking at the initial cost and not that it’s over a period of time. It adds up and actually exceeds the cost of the item.

            For example, TMobile lets you have a free phone. Cool! Until you realize that you pay a monthly fee, which after a year, becomes double the worth of the phone. Same idea happens when leasing a car. This is how companies grab you and charge you more than you should be paying. That’s been kinda my point all along here.

            Yeah, what are you expecting, everything to be perfect after a month? I can’t say this game or most MMOs are entirely perfect. After most updates there are fixes that follow. It’s mainly due to complaints from users when people find methods of abusing different classes.

          • Ferrick

            nothing is free in this world, so that’s impossible ._., even the games that survive on donations and cash items still take money (and of course this doesn’t include private servers)

            on competitive f2p mmos, you are going to be eventually forced to pay a bigger amount than what p2p games normally pay in a year. That’s the folly and the true nature of F2ps, sure at a glance you aren’t forced to, but sooner or later you will be.

            while in calculation, p2ps may cost higher, however in f2ps, the variables are too high, and like i said before, will surpass the amount p2ps pay each year.

            also, T-mobile gives you free phones? I should consider a refund then because i had to pay money to get my Samsung Galaxy S3 from T-mobile.

            Well, if anything, i expected the balance issues to be worked out in a month, especially for a game of ANet’s caliber.

          • TalesOtaku21

            You don’t understand monthly fees I guess. 0 down for a phone. Seems free right? $28 a month, for two years. That’s nearly $700 in monthly fees for a phone they appeared to just give you. People are incredibly attracted to this because they don’t believe they are actually spending as much due to the cost being spread out over time, which actually ends up being over the cost of the phone. You can get a Galaxy s4 for $400 on ebay on average.

            I’m just not sure where you are getting your logic because you CAN pay more in f2p…or not. You can actually pay in ‘in game money’ for quite a few stuff in the shop in many online games, it just takes loooooots longer. Let’s look at Gaia’s market. You can pay for an item in gold, or in cash. Cash is a ton easier, gold you have to grind or, or play the market to achieve. Pretty sure games like GW and MapleStory allows similar systems as well.

            The difference is that the extra content is accessible if paid for. For games like FF14, the entire game can only be accessed if you pay a monthly fee for a game you already paid for. WoW does the same concept. Basically you don’t have a choice (little less with WoW since pretty sure they let you play for free to a level cap which is cool).

            It’s like you could pay more money to sit in first class on a plane, get comfortable seating and priority boarding, while if you pay less you get cabin seating. You still get to ride the plane, you can choose what privileges you get. You can’t blame the airport for charging you for a drink in cabin when you have the ability to turn the drink down.

            I guess depends on how competitive you wanna be….and what market SE is trying to appeal to. I recall WoW lost a lot of members when they started appealing more to casuals. >.>

          • http://twitter.com/#!/kaishou Kaishou

            Bad example there. The big differences between the the two service is that with mobile phone, you are locked into a contract and are obligated to pay for the entire 2 years. If you want out then you have to pay the remaining contract upfront. That’s how it works in the UK anyway. Unlike P2P service, you can stop your monthly payment at any time.

            Also it doesn’t work both ways for mobile phone. Look at Ovivo, they were trying the “F2P” route by allowing you to have a set amount of data, minutes and text messages for life after you pay a one off fee. How do they pay for this? ad money. What happen to them? recently Vodaphone pulled the plug because they withheld payment. This is the one and only reason why there no network with the same business model.

            I’m cool with your argument and all but at least make sense. Look both ways on your example.

          • TalesOtaku21

            Yeah I’m aware, but I wasn’t comparing phone contracts to FF14 subs. I was trying to show how companies snag you with subscriptions by making you pay more than the actual worth of the product. Since services are not tangible, I get pretty paranoid with what I’m actually paying for. Regardless, the initial worth of the subscription is the same idea. The point of a contract with a phone company is for family plans (if you are alone you are doing it wrong!) but I’ve met people who honestly think they are saving money through monthly payments.

            For example, say there’s a five dollar monthly charge for this game. Throughout the year, SE produces enough extra content to create, say, three fourths a new game. The rest supports servers. I would say my money was well spent, assuming I am involved enough with the game. Instead, pay 15 dollars a month, becoming three times the actual amount of the game, and get the same content. I’d feel pretty ripped off!

            I’m not ACCUSING SE of ripping people off, I have just been speculating if they are, since 15 bucks seems like a lot. People would be willing to pay and that’s fine.

            There are other companies, though, that offer free services, even other countries that offer free services. While they have their own methods of profiting, be it ads or donations or sponsors or selling your information or whatever, it’s difficult for me to assume that paying for services is the only option.

            Again not saying ‘everything should be freeeee’. Just wondering how close to free they could get and just don’t want to because, you know, companies make money. Regardless if they love or hate their fans, they must make money to survive. Same goes for me.

  • TheSegaMan

    I got accepted into the beta for FF XIV back when the beta was going on for the PS3 and I loved every second. But I just cant afford to play the actual full game with the monthly subscription. MMOs take a LOT of time and dedication to play, and between things like school, payments, and all the other games that come out each year (particuarlly RPGs, which are already pretty lengthy) its near impossible to play an MMO like this as good as it is.

    • MogCakes

      Definitely. MMOs in general are something you’ve really gotta take time out of your daily life for, it’s essentially a second life.

  • d3v

    “customers” not “costumers”.

  • Luke

    I’ve been with arr since launch and until then I was a wow player. I’m on the server siren and we have the best community I’ve ever experienced in an mmo. This game is really a gem. I’m so glad yoshi feels this way about f2p. All that f2p does is create an environment in which the person who shells out the most cash becomes the “best” player. I refuse to play a game that rewards someone for anything other than being good at playing the game.

  • Seven of The Scions

    My idea is:

    It’s okay with subscription, but…

    The subscription is about how long we can spend time with the game.
    current subscription is based on 30 days whether we play it or not.
    But I suggest they changed it to ‘Play time’.
    so, we BUY TIME.

    $15 for 720 hours playtime.

    With this we can play whenever we want without worrying expiring subscription.
    we can stop when we feel doesn’t need to continue, and when we play, we play it to the fullest.
    this also will prevent the server will be full, because there will be less people afk logging since it cost them their play time.

    well, what do you think about this idea of ‘Playtime subscription’?:)

  • gomes86

    “When you want to put 100% of your energy into making new content … Etc”
    New content, new content…
    Some people aren’t that hungry for new contents, though. Instead they’d rather buy a game and play it whenever they like, enjoying actual game content at the pace of their free time and interest.

    For these people, FFXIV currently isn’t much of a deal.

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