Persona 4 Arena Ultimax Shows A First Look At Marie In Action

By Sato . July 16, 2014 . 9:32am

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Atlus revealed that Marie is the newest fighter to join Persona 4 Arena Ultimax. While we got a few details on her in our earlier report, Famitsu shares more on the “Tsundere Poet of the Hollow Forest”.

 

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The above image shows Marie using her Persona Kaguya that has attacks that cover quite the wide range, to go with poke attacks to keep opponents in check.

 

Marie also attacks using mysterious objects that she pulls out of her purse, but we don’t know much else about it for now.

 

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Her instant-kill attack involves busting out some fog and thunderbolts to take out enemies in one hit.

 

Marie is expected to appear as a DLC character, and will be available several days after the release of Persona 4 Arena Ultimax on August 28, 2014 in Japan. The game will release later this Fall in North America for PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360.


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  • Samuel

    Eh,don’t like her.And I think that even if she has a persona,she doesn’t fit the whole fight thing.I mean,everyone in the game has a persona for some time now,and they know how to fight,she’s just a newbie.But I don’t hate new characters,so whatever.

    • DyLaN

      Pretty sure Liz/Margaret don’t fight at all in P3/4 except as a bonus boss either, but that doesn’t make them weak.

    • Laith Rem

      Seems like she’s using her moves from her boss fight.

      You remember she had a boss fight, right?

      • Samuel

        “She” wasn’t a boss,more like possessed. Besides,it diferent with Eliz/Margaret because they are used to handle persona stuff. Like,you can expect Igor to be god-like,even if he never really fights.

        • Cazar

          Canonically, Elizabeth is a god amongst the other P4A fighters. Not matching up to Elizabeth or Margaret doesn’t make her unqualified to fight.

          She’s a goddess with a strong-ass persona. If Rise could be a fighter, I’m sure Marie can manage.

        • Laith Rem

          Nope she attacked of her own will and THEN she decided to let the fog possess her.

          Also if you think that representations of the collective subconscious can fight, a goddess can too then.

    • Pedro Rosas

      Her Persona is shown during the credits of P4G, plus she is a boss so that makes her automatically a fighter

  • Super excited for this. I liked Marie (shockers of shockers), and Kaguya is probably one of my most favorite Personas in terms of design and application, especially for the end-game. I look forward to how her stuff turns out for the game.

    • thrak

      Come on, who doesn’t love a persona with moe bunny ears?… *irony*

      • She’s the best bunny moth in the world.

        • thrak

          What, those are moth…antennae?… *Junpei surprised face* Seriously?… Okay, I actually have nothing against her persona. I even liked her dungeon. If it was a dungeon (and battle) for some kind of different character, I’d be even happy

          • Visually, she looks like a moth, with the giant “wings” and design and even her face look, and the fact that she’s weak to fire (what bugs aren’t weak to fire.) And yes, the ears/antenna.

            But lore-wise, she’s also a rabbit, due to the legend of Kaguya itself and Japanese beliefs about the “rabbit in the moon”, which is why the antenna could be taken as bunny ears.

            So, she’s a bunny moth.

          • thrak

            I thought she is a rabbit because I know about the ‘Moon rabbit’ legend. And her ‘wings’ I perceived to be stylized kimono sleeves. They even have layers, like Heian era kimono. So I actually still believe it is a rabbit with red eyes, white ears and a stylized kimono over the red modern outfit.

          • It could be that too, but to be honest, without context to the legend or of Kaguya herself, when I first saw the persona, I thought “it’s a giant moth.”

            In a lot of ways there’s definitely evidence for either side, especially the kimono argument, but to me at least, it’s very much a fusion.

  • “her Persona Kaguya that has attacks that cover quite the wide range, to go with poke attacks to keep opponents in check.”

    Elizabeth or Yukari?

  • Pdugna

    niccceee she has something related to weather as her extra gauge. Still predicting the weather =P

  • Qunton C.

    Hooray for more Disc-Locked Content! I cant wait til I have to pay $60 for the disc and then an extra $10 to make it past the “Press Start” screen amd finally an extra $20 to access local Multiplayer and Arcade Mode. Truly a wonderful time to be an Atlus fan.

    • Cazar

      Right, because those allegations are even the slightest bit accurate and you can peer into the future and see that post-launch DLC for a game that hasn’t released is disc-locked.

      • Qunton C.

        Persona Q and SMT4 undeniably had stuff locked away on the cart. Adachi is definitely disc-locked content as well. I used to be a card-carrying Atlus fan. I own every SMT game released in America and many pther Atlus titles. But this increasing reliance on locking away stuff thats already on the disc/cart I paid for has ensured that my loyalty to the Atlus brand is dying. I already cancelled my Persona Q preorder. If Persona 5 launches with Disc Locked Content, I will stop purchasing anything they’re involved with.

        • Cazar

          Those are some valid complaints disregarding your extreme reactions but I was referring to your absurd accusations of locking compulsory game modes behind a paywall. Even if you were just using that as a means to represent a growing trend, that’s really not comparable to any of the things you just mentioned. That and it still being too early to know whether or not Marie will be disc locked. Considering the nature of it all it’s not nearly as likely as Adachi – who is free for the first week anyway.

    • revenent hell

      That’s not how the first game worked so I don’t see how you are implementing or equating those things to this game

      I don’t know where you get your information but it is flawed, extremely so.

      • Qunton C.

        Again, SMT4 and Persona Q have content on the cart locked behind a paywall. Persona 4 Arena did too. Remember how the colors and glasses “DLC” were all 100kb? They were already on the disc. You’d be insane to think hundreds upon hundreds of HD sprites take up just 100kb.

        • Shippoyasha

          Some content are. But not all. Some character DLCs are obviously out of the disc due to their obscene download sizes.

        • revenent hell

          If its so offensive don’t buy the DLC for it.

          Glasses and color swaps are hardly important in the grand scheme of things to me.

          Its not like they are characters or anything majorly important to the game.
          Don’t get me wrong I don’t agree with disc locking stuff but really this is nothing of value being locked away and its hardly something I would even minimally want to pay for so I am not that concerned with it.

        • Cazar

          Even if those weren’t on disc they still would have been 100KB DLCs because they would have updated through a patch and not the store because as a fighting game the content needs to be consistent amongst users for online play.

          They were on disc but just pointing that out.

    • Laith Rem

      Considering they are giving away Adachi for free to everyone on the first week, whether they have the game or not, who is prolly disc-locked… you tell me

    • alhamega

      Wow, just wow.

      Your hatred towards Atlus is disgusting. All the voters for that comment must be a bunch of idiots.

      • MaidKillua

        Well, while there are plenty of valid reasons to hate Atlus, their comment was blown rather out of proportion, based entirely on speculation and didn’t include any of the ACTUAL reasons why Atlus are in fact, pretty shit despite the quality of their games

      • Qunton C.

        After selling Persona Q for $50 (with no explanation) with parts of the cart locked away behind a paywall, SMT4’s DLC being on-cart and now Ultimax getting that garbage shoehorned into it with Adachi and now Marie, I’d say the apprehension is justified. And this is coming from someone who’s favorite RPG is Persona 3.

        • alhamega

          What? I don’t care if P3 is your favorite game or not it doesn’t justified the first statement. I’d be less angry if you tried to be reasonable about it like you said aobve.

          • Qunton C.

            Why are you taking my feelings towards Atlus so personally in the first place? I could understand calling me “disgusting” if I insulted you or your mother or something, but all I did was use hyperbole to make a point about a GAME COMPANY. Chill.

        • DwillXXII

          Why are people hating on you. You’re just stating facts….sigh le internet.

          • alhamega

            “pay $60 for the disc and then an extra $10 to make it past the “Press Start” screen amd finally an extra $20 to access local Multiplayer and Arcade Mode.” is fact? smh

          • DwillXXII

            It’s an exaggeration but you know what he meant. His point is that the DLC is getting out of hand.

          • alhamega

            Yeah… maybe it’s an exaggeration so people hating on it? Not everyone like sarcasm.

          • DwillXXII

            True

        • Laith Rem

          Q costs $50 because it’s the hardest translation job Atlus has ever done. It’s actually not that hard to conclude that. Also it’s probably not gonna sell a lot of copies, since it is a Sony brand going to a Nintendo console, and they need to recoup the losses in some way.

          Adachi may be on the disc, he prolly is but again free on the first week for everyone avoids a lot of the bad will, but Marie prolly isn’t or was worked way after the game went gold and had no way to fix something that had to be fixed. So instead of not being able to add another character, they will give you the option to buy it or not. I would need to check when she arrives.

          As for SMTIV DLC, you could not buy it. I have no way of telling for sure, since it reuses a lot assets so there’s no way to check if its download size being small it’s because it’s unlocking the content or because the content is mostly an image and some dialogue.

          • Qunton C.

            For SMT4, the download size for every DLC equates to roughly 1.5mb each. Getting just the *animated* battle sprites, huge dialogue/cutscene sprites, player party sprites and then compendium sprites in that tiny amount of space would be nothing short of a compression miracle.

    • Herok♞

      Here is the thing you forget this game has been out for a while now in arcades so the base game has been done for a while, now the home edition is adding content like story etc. However when you purchase the console version Adachi is dlc, which is disk locked, however they are giving him out if you have the game day one, which is no problem for me. Now Marie was just announced and probably not close to finished so I doubt she is locked on the disk in anyway.

    • Eder García

      Capcom is proud

      • revenent hell

        None of these things even remotely apply to the game.

        Except Adachi being disc locked BUT its rendered null as they are giving him away for free, even if it is for a short period of time. Even if you don’t have the game you can download the DLC to be used at a later date. So no one really has to miss the free DLC unless they choose not to get it during its free period

        This isn’t the same thing as Capcom.

    • Inergio

      As if someone payed for Marie.

  • revenent hell

    Eh, I still don’t care for her as a character, I think they would have to give her away for free for me to pick her up. Her personality is terribly distasteful to me.
    I am rather content without her and look forward to Koromaru.

  • s6_miller

    So if her and Adachi are DLC at release, why could they have not included them on the disc?

    • revenent hell

      Because they want people to pay for them later if they don’t pick, Adachi at least, up within that first week.

      Don’t know whether they will give her out for free or not yet….and it even says for Japan at least she will be released a few days after its release…..so….

    • Herok♞

      Marie hasn’t be announced as release day dlc, so she may be out a while after the game comes out. Adachi on the other hand is probably on the disc already

      • Androu1

        The post says she will be out a couple of days after the Japanese release. It’s possible they’ve developed her after the game’s gone gold (if it already has) but it’s most likely they are just making her DLC for no real reason other than to get mo’ cheddah, something which Atlus seems to be enjoying lately and which ASW has been doing for a while.

        • Herok♞

          Game has been out in the arcades a while any new character at this point isn’t just a simple cash grab

  • Inergio

    Why, just why. Why Atlus force her so much, even fans dont like her. We get this over Fuuka…

    Just dont make her story important, i couldnt bear playing with her.

    • Cazar

      Fuuka makes even less sense than Marie. And not everyone hates her, but the people who do are excessively vocal about it. All the salt is getting old.

      Edit: just refreshed any saw your image. If you were trying to make a point with that character poll… Fuuka isn’t on it either and the only characters on that list that aren’t already in P4A2’s roster are either dead, not part of P3/P4, or Nanako.

      • It’s the salt that seasons games like these, at least.

        But yeah, not everyone hates Marie. It’s just a difference between the people who dislike her find reason to say it, while the ones who like her don’t tend to find reason to shout it.

    • FlobotingIt

      I liked Marie. Fuuka, I did not like. Too dainty and “Oh! You’re doing something, even the smallest thing, you scared me!” Seriously. I thought Marie was funny. Cute, even, with all her defensiveness and how she hides her talent. I liked her.

      • Inergio

        Are you trying to say that Marie was better ? “Youstupidmuhpoems”. Serioulsy was there someone who didnt cringe everytime in scene with her ?

        • Shade DMessiah

          “Therearetwoen-i-mies”

        • FlobotingIt

          I liked Marie better, yes, that is what I’m saying. I didn’t cringe.

      • thrak

        TALENT?….

    • MasterScrub

      Why would Fuuka be playable? She’s support. I mean sure, Rise was too, but at least she had the whole idol thing to lend to her moveset. What would Fuuka do other than just chill inside of Juno and analyze people?

      Also, I like Marie. Just because you don’t like her doesn’t mean other people feel the same.

    • Dianatos

      Lol, poor Tatsuya taking spot 19.

    • Tincho Kudos

      Why Koro is 14th and yu is 1st? That list is nuts!

    • I love her! Made her Yu’s girlfriend on the game!

    • Lastlight

      How is Persona 3 MC and Persona 2 Innocent Sins MC below Persona 4’s MC??????
      What????

      • Inergio

        A lot of people started with P4/P4G, i guess.

        • Ciphermask

          It has been around for some time and it does see a lot of popularity. It has a more accessible story for most people, and while not being my favorite or my first, it was a fun a game to play (the original Persona 4). The characters were likeable and it had a fairly good story setting to move things along.

      • Snorlaxation

        Standing next to Yu, P3’s MC is about as interesting as a knocked over house plant. I liked the guy, mostly cuz he just seemed so quiet, but reliable, like someone if you got to know you’d have a friend for life (irony?). But overall really, the guy’s lightly developed, and for the most part didn’t connect very well with his teammates, who looked up to him, but never really understood him. (One reason why the FeMC in P3P is his exact opposite, making friends with everyone and showing how much she loved them and everything).

        He also didn’t connect that great with japanese audiences. Not all, mind you, but compared to P4’s Swag-tagonist (even if that’s only in some parts of the P4 media storm) Yu still has more substance by comparison in the main plot.

        Sadly Tatsuya just gets shafted everywhere/everyday. And for the most part, people just think Marie is fun/funny, in that, oh gosh, that silly tsundere, kinda way.

        Stateside, for the most part, I love her cuz of her Voice actress, but the character was also pretty cool. She was a shoehorned into the plot though, since they just tried making her a puzzle piece that fit in all the open spaces of the plot (without just altering some stuff) and yeah.

        • DwillXXII

          I honestly prefer the P3 MC much more than Yu. Yu is the ultimate Mary Sue and P4’s cast were the biggest suck ups in gaming history. They would literally bend over for you anyday of the week. I understand that they wanted to make the cast likeable but geez, P4’s cast is over the top when it comes to pleasing childlike fanbase. I guess people will take that over realistic characters though.

          • NeptuniasBeard

            The hate levels are very strong in this one. How is Yu a Mary Sue? Seriously, explain that one to me. How is he a Mary Sue, but Makoto, who is an allegory for freaking Jesus Christ NOT?

            The P4 cast were closer to Narukami WAY more than Makoto’s friends were to him, (it helps that he doesn’t try to bang all the females while ignoring his male companions)

            And how were the P3 cast “more realistic”? Is it because they spent much more of their time wallowing around feeling sorry for themselves, while the P4 gang actually knew how to have fun when they can?

          • DwillXXII

            There’s actually no hate at all but I will explain it to you. Yu is the ultimate Mary Sue because all of the praise that he gets he didn’t work for. There was no sense of building up or accomplishment. Yu was instantly liked by all, respected by all. Literally everything he did was perfect, its ridiculous.

            In P3 Makoto HAD to prove his worth. He was constantly working towards gaining the respect of his peers. This was shown through Junpei’s jealousy, gaining leadership, teaching Aigis the meaning of life and even in the slinks with the females of SEES. Each of the members of SEES were individuals. They were not constantly sucking up to you for no reason but by the end of the game everyone became a family with Makoto as the center.

            And yeah, the P3 cast were more realistic because they weren’t made to be likeable. People will say Yukari is a bitch, which she is but she has every reason to. Junpei’s jealousy is also understandable. Mitsuru is running a company on top of her involvement with SEES. There were days where they were actually too BUSY to do what you needed them to do. In P4 the cast are constantly available to whatever Yu would say. And yeah they had a lot of weight on their shoulders whereas the IT saw the murder mystery as more of a hobby than anything else.

            I mean these are just my 2 cents but take it as you will.

          • NeptuniasBeard

            “In P3 Makoto HAD to prove his worth. He was constantly working towards gaining the respect of his peers.”

            Where did you see that? Makoto was given the leadership position out of the gate. Junpei resisted, sure, but he had NO choice in the matter. Makoto didn’t work for his respect, he kept doing what he was doing and Junpei was like “okay, you’re better leadership material than me” Akihiko showed up and let him keep being leader because he didn’t care for it, and by the time Mitsuru joined, she felt like she shouldn’t shake up what’s been working for them. Makoto didn’t have to work for a damn thing. And anime Makoto couldn’t care less what people thought about him.

            Narukami on the other hand, was surrounded by individuals that were much more normal. Yosuke nominated Yu leader because he was the first one to get the power to enter the TV and gain a Persona (and even then, he reveals that, like Junpei, he was jealous because of how natural he was at all of it). Chie and Yukiko just followed because they didn’t understand what was going on as much as Narukami. Kanji, Rise, and Naoto are all younger than him, and came much later, too late to really challenge him for the role.

            This is where the praise comes in, until recently, these kids didn’t even know what the heck a shadow and Persona even was, and now they meet a guy who can fight them pretty easily. Of course they’re gonna be awestruck. Especially since he can use multiple Persona while they can only use one.

            And even with the praise he gets, you are GREATLY exaggerating how much they admire him. Most of their conversations don’t even acknowledge him until he speaks up. it’s not like they are going “Where is senpai, what is he doing right now, why can’t he doing it with us? Our lives are so meaningless without him” Nor do they let him get away with things they get pissed at the others about. Yukiko pushed him off the cliff with Yosuke at the lake, still fed him Mystery food X,and still tossed him out of the hotspring without apologizing. He lost the crossdressing pageant, Naoto’s smarter than he is no matter what, etc. He’s far from omniscient.

            Where are these examples of the IT riding the Narukami like a rodeo show?

            And on the last part, no, they did NOT see the investigation as a hobby, that was just Naoto, and they even called her out for accusing them of seeing it the same way

          • DwillXXII

            Did you play the game? Or are you just a P4 fanboy? Makoto took out a full moon shadow by himself. He proved this in front of everyone. Yukari was supposed to “save” him but when it came down to it, HE rose to the occasion. He saved the day and he did this in front of everyone. Every full moon operation he led successfully so of course no one would complain. Don’t even start on the anime because if anything that proved his leadership even more and showed how he worked for it.

            Surrounded by individuals that are much more “normal”? What does this have to do with anything about leadership? Besides being the first to summoning his persona what did Yu do to deserve this leadership? If anything Yosuke was more of a leader than him but nope everything gets handed to the ultimate Mary Sue by default.

            Again, you’re saying that he was a leader due to his wildcard ability but besides that he has nothing to show yet they all call him leader 24/7. It’s grating.

            Again, you’re wrong. I’m not exaggerating all. Look at the dialogue in game. They all praise him all the time. Open your mind and think about it. In P3 they rarely praise Makoto outside of battle quotes but in P4 it’s nonstop, especially by Rise, Teddie, Yosuke, Kanji and occasionally Chie. They pushed him off of a cliff and out of the bath house because that’s just wrong but keep in mind these acts weren’t towards him specifically but towards the guys.

            The game itself, even the anime proves enough how much they ride his dick. I don’t need to give examples. Anyone with open eyes and acknowledges the TRUTH would know this.

            Last part no you wrong. It wasn’t just Naoto. Yosuke admitted to this as well, or at least his shadow did. They did treat the whole mystery as a joke. If they actually were serious about it they would be like Dojima and try and be proactive instead of reactive. Instead they just sat around WAITING for people to save. That clearly shows that this case was nothing more to them as something to do. They even had concerts and went to the beach when they could actually be trying to do something about it. Instead lets just wait till someone else gets thrown in. Even when someone appears on the Midnight Channel the STILL couldn’t save the person. It’s obvious that they didn’t try as hard as they could have. Like I said it was just a “thing to do” for them.

            Like I said earlier, these are just my thoughts. My OPINION. No need to go back and forth unless you really want to.

          • NeptuniasBeard

            “Makoto took out a full moon shadow by himself. He proved this in front of everyone.”

            And Yu took out Yosuke’s Shadow by himself. And he did so without any cutscene powers (unlike Makoto). And every rescue he led successfully. He sounds pretty qualified to me.

            And by “much more normal” I mean these kids, as oppossed to SEES, had NO interaction or knowledge with shadows until they go inside the TV. So they deferred to the guy that looked like he can handle their situation best (the protagonist). Which he showed when he was able to summon his persona and fight without having his own Shadow appear. And aside from Yosuke, NONE of them have any reason to want to be leader. Yosuke gave up his spot because he didn’t feel like he could handle the pressure and felt much more comfortable as support. Which is a pretty realistic stance to take for a teenager. And nobody calls Narukami leader if it doesn’t have anything to do with the case or fighting Shadows. They call him Sempai, Protagonist-kun, or partner.

            And where’s all this dick riding? Rise’s just flirty, Kanji respects ALL of his sempai, Yu is Yosuke’s closest friend (and you can compliment him as much as he does you). And Chie… doesn’t really do it at all. Teddie’s probably the only real offender.

            Your opinion is find, but you’re letting hype backlash cloud your judgement

          • thrak

            Oh comeee onnn, Magician shadow is one of the mighty arcana shadows, while shadow Yosuke is just…well..bad side of Yosuke. And…the whole ‘Great Seal’ thing?… When people compare Yu and Minato they seem to forget about it. In my mind, the power to stop the world from ending is a biggest power but it is non-aggressive power so if, say, Yu and Minato were to duel one day with their average personas(e), Yu could win. But if (the very thought of it scares me) Minato would turn his inner power into aggressive one… Goodbye, Yu.

          • NeptuniasBeard

            You can’t really say one is any stronger than the other, they are fought at equivalent points, and they both go down easy. Of course, Makkoto didn;t even kill it, Thanatos acted autonomously.

            And this isn’t really about power, it’s about popularity and likeability.

          • thrak

            The power of a Great Seal is not a power of Thanatos who is personification of End himself, but Minato’s own true power. Minato had both power to destroy and save inside of him (Thanatos and Messiah). And Thanatos did everything you say? How about Izanagi who was just a ‘gift’ from Izanami and not in any way, a reflection of Yu’s psyche. Adachi had the same one. Checkmate.

          • Luke Blackwood

            Oh reallly? Tell me more about Izanagi no Ookami then. If Izanagi isn’t a reflection of Yu’s psyche, then how does Yu’s ultimate persona, which is only forged by the power of the precious bonds he AND ONLY HE shares with his friends is basically a powered-up version of Izanagi?

            By the way, the Magatsu Izanagi stuff is kinda obvious – their arcanas. The Fool and the Jester are basically the same arcana, so it is only natural that Adachi’s persona is very similar to Yu’s one. That is no way in hell a Checkmate, dude.

          • thrak

            Izanagi-no-Okami is indeed Izanagi that Yu made his own, in fact, it could be that he received his very own persona just when he beat Izanami. It doesn’t change the fact that he initial persona was just a gift from Izanami. And still, you forget one more Izanagi user…Namatame-san. While he never shown his persona, it is clear that he had the same power of Izanagi as Yu and Adachi. All three of them having the same power…Coincidence?….And for some reason, Minato’s persona is absolutely unique….as well as his power….No other person has personas Orpheus and Messiah. So, it is too soon for you to relax. It still is..Checkmate, even if you are obviously hurt by this very word and demanded compensation by calling me ‘dude’. Hah.

          • Lan

            What the heck are you going on about? Izanami didn’t gift Yu anything, she used a bit of her power to give his own a little push. It was still Yu that awakened Izanagi. Also I don’t understand the point of stating only Minato has Orpheus and Messiah, so what? Does he have access to his team mates Persona’s?

          • Snorlaxation

            Orpheus actually came to Aigis’ aid in FES. But that’s another can of etheral worms.

            And yes, Izanami did give Yu’s own natural power a little tap on the shoulder, but that was enough to alter it’s Form, as she did with Adachi and Namatame, in order to test her theory/experiment. Magatsu Izanagi was what Adachi’s became, we sadly never saw Namatame’s persona if it ever fully manifested at all, and Yu’s eventually became Izanagi-No-Okami.

          • DwillXXII

            But you know what I wonder? Since the P3 MC left, I also think his unique personas left him and Aigis just so happened to inherit Orpheus along with the Wild Card while Liz went with Thanatos as her signature. Kinda like the P3 MC giving Aigis a gift and Orpheus signifying that its his soul that allows her to have the Wild Card ability. Not the fact that Orpheus is just a wild card by product. If that’s the case everyone from P1 and P2 along with Yu would start with Orpheus.

          • Lan

            I think it’s more that Minato’s bond with Aegis led to her awakening Orpheus but that’s just my thoughts.

          • Snorlaxation

            I agree.

          • Snorlaxation

            I think Orpheus was just an aspect of Minato’s soul that stuck with his Wild Card, since Aigis was only a temporary Wild Card holder, (maybe even a holdover until Yu/Souji?).

            Personas supposedly all come from the Realm of Unconsciousness, meaning they’re all their already, and the forms they take, can be shared by others, like Loki, Jack Frost, Surt for example? Only some really reflect the person who’s tapping into that Realm. Whether Orpheus was just a remnant of Minato/Makoto, or attached to the Wild Card in some way… not sure.

          • Laith Rem

            Aegis still has the Wild card tho. Arena proves it.

          • Snorlaxation

            It does?? I haven’t finished it. How??

          • Luke Blackwood

            I’m not sure, but i guess it is because, just like Yu, she can change between normal and ultimate persona while no one else can do it besides those two.

          • Laith Rem

            What Luke Blackwood said plus having Fool as her arcana. Fool is the Wild Card power as evidenced by Eli getting it at the end.

          • Snorlaxation

            Oh right. I totally forgot about that… The infinite potential aspect. Thank you for reminding me. :)

          • thrak

            Explain me Magatsu Izanagi’s existence, then. And why Namatame has the same power.

          • Lan

            Magatsu Izanagi is a corrupted Izanagi. Yu and Adachi are basically opposites which can even be seen in their Arcanas. Got this from the wiki entry of the Hunger Arcana.” In the case of the Jester, the querent is misguided and unwilling to work with others, in contrast to the Fool, who is compatible with everyone.” Namatame only has the power to go into the TV, he has not awakened his Persona, if he even has one.

          • Luke Blackwood

            Uh, I don’t even know where to start with this.

            Okay, first of all: what evidence do you have to support the fact that Izanagi ISN`T Yu`s persona, but rather just an Izanami gift? Adachi having a similar persona does not prove anything: they are similar because of two things: one, Yu and Adachi have similar arcanas, so it makes sense their personas would be similar. Second, they are both related to Izanami and their Izanagis reflect their tie to her: while Yu represents the original Izanagi from the japanese myth, who stands up to Izanami and create a 1500 people for every 1000 she’d kill, Adachi’s one is a Izanagi that has been corrupted by Yomi just like Izanami was – reflecting how Adachi plays along Izanami’s wishes and is himself corrupted.

            By the way, Namatame NEVER summoned a persona, so it is only conjecture that he can also summon an Izanagi. His shadow form does not resemble Izanagi in the slightest, whereas ALL shadow selves bear resemblance to their persona versions. So, saying Namatame also have a Izanagi is only a guess – and a bad one at that, considering what has been shown in the game. The power Izanami awakened in those three is the wild card – the only reason Yu summon multiple personas while Adachi doesn’t is that, unlike Yu, Adachi didn’t forge social links with anyone (but Yu in P4G, but then again, same arcana, so it wouldnt give him new personas to use).

            Furthermore, if you claim Izanagi is only a gift because it is not an “unique” persona, then that would deny Kanji and Koromaru’s personas as well? Cerberus and Take-Mikazuchi appear as regular personas for Narukami and Minato, so if Yu’s power is only an Izanami gift, then what are those two?By the way, the ‘those are separate games’ excuse will not fly – they take place in the same universe and characters even interact with each other, so Koromaru and Yu can summon the same persona even though Koromaru NEVER had any interaction with Izanami. So, the whole thing about Yu’s power being not truly his inner psyche is not accurate.

            Orpheus and Messiah are, by the way, shared personas – with Aigis. Aigis’s Athena transmogrifies into Orpheus when she awakens to her wild card, so that places Orpheus and Izanagi in the same category – byproducts of the wild card power.

            So, like you can see, you didn’t came up with a checkmate, because there are still parts in your argument that do not add. So, if you wish to come up with a true checkmate, try fixing those up before claiming to have one, ok?

            As a side note, how in the world is the word “dude” compensation? Geez, you really like blowing things out of proportion…

          • Lan

            Question. Are you saying one needs to forge social links to acquire more Personas?

            Anyway the Fool Arcana and the Jester/Hunger Arcana are not exactly the same since they have different Personas and represent different things. A jester acts a fool but a fool is not always a jester.

          • Luke Blackwood

            Ignoring gameplay mechanics and considering the two animations plot, yes, social links are the key to acquiring new personas. In the P3 movie, the protag only manage to summon a new persona upon realizing his bond with… the magician arcana guy that no one cares for. On the same page, he only summons Jack Frost and Sarasvati, whose arcanas are Magician and Priestess – the arcanas of the two people he relates a little more in the movie: magician guy/Junpei and Fuuka.

            About the Fool/Jester, i meant it as an arcana and not as the actual figure. If i’m not mistaken, the Jester arcana replaces the fool in some tarot decks, hence the two being “the same” card.

          • Snorlaxation

            Jester and Fool being the same actually plays into the plot, since Adachi and his jaded ass (love that guy) is pretty much what the Investigation team woulda become without the case and Yu. Souji and Adachi

          • thrak

            Namatame’s shadow doesn’t look like his self?… Thats Kunino-Sagiri, not his shadow, did you forget?… Adachi’s ‘shadow’ doesn’t look like Izanagi either, because he already has a persona Izanagi and is Ameno-Sagiri. Actually, whether Namatame can summon his persona or not is not important at all. Yu never faced his true self – this condition seems to be a must for awakening a persona in this game unless SOME OTHER POWER intervenes. You either have a persona as a result of a fight with yourself or just a gift. You admit yourself that Yu’s persona was a gift, but you insist that he ‘made it his own’ from the beginning and similiarity with Adachi’s persona is coincidence. Well-well, having the same power from the same source and identical looks of personas is certainly a ‘nice’ coincidence for me. The idea that same persona could belong to two different arcanas because of its nature probably too hard for you to understand, right?… Okay, screw this. I’ll talk simple now: even if Yu made his Izanagi ‘truly his own’ from the beginning, it doesn’t change the fact that Minato awakened his persona on his own and it was absolutely unique from beginning till end. Aigis just INHERITED his persona which is unique to him. Hell, even if they share it, it was still awakened on its own and unique. Thats my main point. And that ‘checkmate’ that really hurts you still, was about that fact. I never intended to sound offensive, it is actually you who first responded to me furiously. I understand you defend your fan favorite protagonist, dude, because of your very important fan reasons. But I am simply defending what is true in this given plot. Thats all.

          • Luke Blackwood

            Gods, do you even TRY to read what I say, or do you just try to come up with anything that looks like whomever is arguing with you is simply wrong because their letting their fan senses cloud their judgement? Anyway, let’s go from the top now.

            Okay, I was wrong about Namatame’s shadow, I forgot that it was actually Kunino Sagiri. In any case, they NEVER shown Namatame doing anything CLOSE to awakening a Persona, so saying that he also owns a Izanagi persona is mere conjecture. If you claim otherwise, I’d like you to show me proof based on “what is true in this given plot”.

            Now, let’s go on with your claim about awakening Personas. Where, exactly, is it said that you MUST awaken to your Persona either by fighting your shadow self or by a gift? In “this given plot”, Izanami never claims to give Yu his Izanagi – instead, she claims to give his inner potential a push. In other words, the potential to summon Izanagi is within Yu – Izanami simply makes it so that he can summon it without facing his shadow self. In other words yet again, so that you don’t go around misunderstanding things (or plainly ignoring them, you never know), Izanami’s handshake merely replaces Yu’s shadow fight, so that he can summon Izanagi without fighting it. It is never told to be a gift “in this given plot”. Feel free to reply with PROOF of where Izanami says that Izanagi is a GIFT from her “in this given plot”.

            Now, let’s me teach you a little thing about argumentation. There is a thing known as a supposition – it consists of considering whatever the other person said as true for that moment, and then proving that, considering that as true, other facts do not add up. So, when I say that Yu’s izanagi is a gift, it is merely that – a supposition so that I might show you how facts dont add up. Furthermore, I NEVER said anything about Yu making Izanagi his own, which only proves how you either greatly misunderstand everything someone else tries to argue or clearly put words in their mouths.

            Now, about Izanagi and Magatsu Izanagi. You do realize that Yu’s persona being Izanagi is actually a historical reference, right? As Izanami is the main villain, the protagonist having the figure who stood up against her in the japanese myth is a way to reference the japanese culture.

            Now, lets go to Narukami and Adachi. Narukami and Adachi are both key pieces to the plot – they both receive the potential from Izanami and can be said to be tied to her. However, while Yu stands up to her just like the Izanagi in the myth, Adachi plays into her hands and do what she would like him to, even without knowing it. For that reason, considering that they are both central figures with direct ties with Izanami but that have different stances when it comes to her, they have similar Personas: Yu possess the original Izanagi, the japanese god who gave birth to a thousandd and five hundred men to replace the thousand Izanami would kill, Adachi posess the Magatsu Izanagi – a version of Izanagi that, just like Izanami, was corrupted by Yomi’s filth. There is a perfectly acceptable reason for both their personas to be similar, and it doesn’t come to being Izanami’s gift. Once again, feel free to deny that with PROOF “in this given plot”.

            About the arcanas, it is you who cannot grasp a simple concept: I never spoke about a persona belonging in two diffferent arcanas. The point I raised was that Izanagi and Magatsu Izanagi being similar personas is comprehensible as they belong to a arcana that is, in practice, the very same.

            Now, a few things about Minato. How do you claim that Minato truly awakened to his persona by his own, and not as a byproduct of hosting Death within himself for a few years? There is no evidence that Minato’s Orpheus is a byproduct of having hosted Death within himself.

            And I’d like to have you elaborate on this “inheritance” matter. Where in the game is it said that she inherited Orpheus from him? In fact, where is it EVER said that personas can be inherited? As manifestations of one’s inner psyche, Personas should be completely unique and used only by their original awakeners. However, Aigis doesnt even possess a special Orpheus. She possess a straight copy of him. Just like she can summon Thanatos. And Messiah. Which should be Minato’s “unique” personas. Since there isnt any affirmation “in this given plot” that Aegis inherited those from him (or let alone any concept of persona inheritance), it looks to me that those three are just like any other persona wielded by Minato – part of the wild card.

            Making things short, since if I dont, you’re bound to ignore most of my arguments and go straight into things that have been cleared up, yet you shamelessly ignore them, your main point is flawed. There is NO proof that Yu’s Izanagi isnt unique and awakened by himself (as Magatsu Izanagi is a similar, yet not the same persona, as you can see above; and Izanami did not gift anyone a persona but merely gave Yu a little help to awaken Izanagi) and there is no proof that Orpheus is unique and awakened by Minato (as you could claim that he only awakened to it due to hosting Nyx within himself for years, that being as canon “in this given plot” as Izanami gifting Yu izanagi; and Aegis can also summon the very same Orpheus even though there is no concept of Persona inheritance within any game of the seres). So, your main point is flawed. Is this simple talk enough for you to understand?

            And about that personal stuff about “my fan favourite”, me being hurt or whatever. The work checkmate does not hurt me. The thing is, checkmates are, in chess, a moment where your opponent does not have ANY possible play that can save their king from death. However, this isn’t the case here, as your arguments are easily denied considering “what is true in this given plot” and thus, do not truly mean a checkmate.
            And this is not about defending Yu (in fact, I hold him and Minato in the same regard – I find Yu a more charismatic character, but Minato is way cooler in my opinion), but merely of denying personal opinions and interpretations that are being stated as the truth, specially because there are little to none arguments within the game that back up anything you said.

            On a last note, it is really arrogant and preposterous to claim that your personal opinions are “what is true in this given plot”. Next time you want to use such a definite expression, be sure to, you know, do a little search, see if there are any passages within the game that CLEARLY demonstrate your point and that kind of stuff. Because calling your opinion “the truth” will not make it so.

          • thrak

            Even if Minato’s persona was awakened thanks to Death within him, there is only one Orpheus which is unique. You claim that Yu and Adachi actually have different personas, while the game states a lot of times that the power within them was the same. They just made it their own in the moral aspect. (Good, real Izanagi true to its original form in Yu and corrupted Izanagi in Adachi) The power in them was the same, including bringing people to the other side. The dealbreaker is just that I consider two Izanagis to be same and you consider them absiolutely different. Either way, they were given by Izanami and not unique in any way. I still stand by my opinion and I gladly allow you to stand by yours. Why this long rant?… ‘Let me teach you’ you said. Don’t you think you are getting too personal here, my friend? If not this for response of yours, I’d forget this conversation completely. It is getting more and more gross. It almost looks like you are aroused by ‘teaching me’ a ‘few things’. Calm the fuck down.

          • Luke Blackwood

            Isn’t going around saying people are just doing stuff because they are defending their fan favourites or that they got hurt and are demanding reparation way more personal than trying to teach one that appears to lack some fundaments of argumentation those fundaments?
            And gods, arousal? Do you quite GET what the word arousal means? Seriously, if I’m getting “gross”, I dont know what bringing arousal in this kind of discussion is…

            Anyway, consider this my last comment here. Even though there is no argument to justify that Izanami “gave”” those two their personas, you will still blindly believe in that. Okay, cool. Personal interpretation and whatnot. Games are meant to be like that.

            This is just a friendly advice, and I seriously mean it as friendly (nor that I believe you will think it is, but then again I dont particulary mind if you dont): Dont try to use your personal opinions and interpretations as proofs to belittle a character. It is fine not to like Yu for no matter how many reasons, but if those reasons are just personal, dont try to use them as arguments, which are meant to be objective.

            Well, that’s it, I’m getting out of here now. Best regards or something, I guess.

          • thrak

            I ..don’t like Yu? Your fatal misunderstanding of me is starting to get on my nerves. I like Yu. I repeat again and AGAIN, and I think I’ll tell one more time, just for you: the only thing I try to say – to me, Yu’s and Adachi’s Izanagis are the same. You can think anything you want, but Izanami gave Yu his power with a ‘gentle push’. You are getting ‘aroused’ because you act really pumped when you talk about this subject, you are WAY TOO pumped, your personal accusations of me are starting to get really gross. To be honest, I feel a little ashamed for starting this pointless conversation with you. Absolutely anything I said which is actually quite true to canon you misinterpreted fatally. It could be a fun discussion with a bit of rivalry but now I just don’t enjoy myself anymore. IIt wasn’t a fair fight, because you still can’t prove your point especially without getting all giddy about how you ‘will teach me a lesson’. I’ll just leave you with this: ‘Seeing the potential in the Protagonist, the Attendant decides to awaken the Protagonist’s talents of invoking Personas via their handshake. ‘ – citate of Shin Megami Tensei wiki

          • Snorlaxation

            I partially agree with thrak about Izanagi being a gift from Izanami. Mostly though, it was a Persona that took on it’s form because of Izanami’s meddling. And he made that gift his own when it transformed into his Ultimate Persona, forged through friendships that he never thought he’d have, to stop the one who was trying to not only cloud the truth but take away those he cared for/loved.

            Adachi’s own gift is prime proof that this is true, since he mutated it with his own dark feelings and intentions. Can only imagine what on earth Namatame’s Izanagi looked like.

          • thrak

            Namatame’s righteous, justice-obsessed, political and fanatical Izanagi? As a fan of Namatame, I’d like to see it. :)

          • Snorlaxation

            Right?? WIth all his guilt and messiah complex and everything… Just imagine.

            I figure it woulda looked like Izanagi-No-Okami, at first glance, but be really sketchy, or cracked, or maybe like a super sentai Izanagi but with tentacles for a head? Hell knows. (I’m not the most creative… haha)

          • thrak

            Part of me wanted every Izanagi to look different! Why? Because, now they are really the same persona. But imagine if Adachi’s and Namatame’s Izanagi looked different? It not only would be cool, but also made more sense. I mean, school uniform wearing persona with cheerleader ribbons for someone like Adachi? Even blood-stained, it doesn’t fit him. Yeah, Izanagi being the same in both cases helps me to prove that it is just a gift from Izanami, (that he is) but I also wish every Izanagi was a reflection of their psyche. (But that probably meant they’d have to fight their shadow self? I am kind of disappointed we never got to fight Protagonists shadow…)

          • Snorlaxation

            I get what you mean. All Izanagi’s, cool as they are, were compromised by the same token. Considering how long the game went on, it would’ve been cool to see a middle stage for that Persona, where it starts to alter and reflect the person, then by the end all three Izanagi’s would’ve looked radically different.

          • thrak

            To be honest, I think the game lacks a lot of potential without such changes. I mean, Adachi despises highschoolers, it is obvious and still his persona looks like one, Izanagi’s mask resembles Yu’s hair…Sometimes, it is too obvious that Izanagi was designed to visually complement Yu and vice versa. Even ‘ the red version’ is still Yu, after all. It is like…deep down, Adachi is actually Yu, complete with Yasogami uniform and all…It is strange.

          • Snorlaxation

            What you’re saying is pretty much true. Their Arcana’s are essentially the same thing, only Adachi’s is the more negative aspect of it without being a full on Reversal. Adachi hates high schoolers because he remembers being one, and from what he tells you, he didn’t have a very fun time of it, and had even less of an enjoyable time growing up.

            He’s very jaded, and honestly, most of the Investigation Team would’ve ended up just like him had the Midnight Channel and Yu not came into their lives. Yu himself would’ve been a lot worse off without this adventure taking place, probably. Adachi is pretty astute, (whether he faked being a dumbass, or just uses most of his skills to hide what he did, or whether he’s just listless and bored with life, he’s still a cop) and he saw in most of the cast the parts of themselves they didn’t wanna face, and that resonated with him a bit. Probably made him hate them all more, idk.

            Fact is, he’s a MASSIVE PRICK, but he’s also one of the most realistic and complex characters in the Persona series. He shares a lot of that crap with Yukari, Junpei, and Yosuke. His motivations and experiences really resonate with a lot of people, those who’ve grown up without wanting to or who grew up and saw nothing to look forward to anymore.

            Or at least, that’s how it all seemed to my POV.

          • thrak

            Just tell me you agree that Izanagi was a gift from Izanami, given with ‘a gentle push’ and the same as , in fact, Adachi’s. There is a certain person who thinks Izanagi is a manifestation of Yu’s true self and wishes to tear me apart for that reason. But Yu never faced his true self, he made his persona his own in a last fight with Izanami. I think my opinion is true to the story.

          • Snorlaxation

            I totally already agreed, more or less. My post earlier yesterday was:

            ” I partially agree with thrak about Izanagi being a gift from Izanami. Mostly though, it was a Persona that took on it’s form because of Izanami’s meddling. And he made that gift his own when it transformed into his Ultimate Persona, forged through friendships that he never thought he’d have, to stop the one who was trying to not only cloud the truth but take away those he cared for/loved.

            Adachi’s own gift is prime proof that this is true, since he mutated it with his own dark feelings and intentions. Can only imagine what on earth Namatame’s Izanagi looked like.”

          • thrak

            *Bloody tears of heartful thank you*

          • Snorlaxation

            My pleasure, and thank you too. These have been fun discussions to have.

            I guess though, if I wanted to be critical, one could say having similar Izanagi Personas was a result of the two of them having similar Arcana’s: The Fool and the Jester/Lust/Hunger, which are similar and connected, though also opposing in a way. But I don’t really believe that would be enough reason. I think the Izanami theory is closer, or is The truth.

          • thrak

            I think it is the design that is misleading. I already said that when plotwise Izanagi really just a ‘gift’ the appearance of his persona is clearly ‘All Yu’. At first, I even thought that he is indeed a manifestation of Yu’s psyche since they are so similiar. My guess is that they (Atlus) designed the protagonist and his persona before they invented the plot twist with Adachi and Namatame. I’ve read about it a bit in their interview and actually it can probably be it. Thats why Adachi controls blood-soaked highschooler persona, heh. As a writer, I thought game script comes first, but it was actually a more complex process…

          • Snorlaxation

            Judging from the concept art, I’m surprised that the script didn’t come first. Yu was the most untouched and remained almost exactly the same in his design from start to finish. But yeah, Izanagi was made with Yu in mind, and that kinda messes with the story and plot a little bit.

          • thrak

            I WISH it was ‘plot first, art later’ but believe me, for japanese developers who tend to think visually, art sometimes even comes first. For example… An evoker is an important part of P3, right? I’d even say it is crucial to the story. Do you know it was designer’s idea to introduce evokers?… :) it was his idea and it influenced both art AND script.

          • Snorlaxation

            Holy shit. Really? I mean, yeah for good ideas and influence but damn. Imagine all that backtracking?
            And yeah, I don’t write professionally, but I do enjoy it, and for me, it just feels weird to not have your outline fully set before the art comes in, even with my being a more ‘visual’ person.’

          • thrak

            I was very surprised too. Still, Shigenori Soejima is a person I love and admire to no end and he is probably the wisest and most story-controlling designer ever.

          • Snorlaxation

            I’m a big admirer, also of , dammit I forget the name, but the designer before him too. That one ‘Ultimania’ book about Persona 1, and both Persona 2’s was so cool to look at.

          • thrak

            He was not a designer for P1 and P2, but thats a different story

          • Snorlaxation

            Oh, how embarassing. My bad.
            But either way, Kazuma Kaneko’s art is also very appreciated by me. (That sentence I just typed looks like a train wreck.)

          • Snorlaxation

            I believe that he had the Wild Card ability, or was granted it when his Destiny coincided with what Izanami had planned and it came to him.

            Either way, he probably had the potential, or even if he didn’t, Izanami’s interference altered his Persona’s form. I fully believe that.

            From a DESIGNING standpoint. Izanagi does reflect Yu’s design, so OF COURSE it’s HIS Persona. Whether all 3 Izanagi’s (or 2, since Namatame’s probably never manifested) all looked EXACTLY the same, who’s to say. Maybe Adachi’s had a spear, while Yu’s had that blade, or something? Slight differences to coincide with them being different people with different mindsets/psyche’s, or maybe those changes came about over time, and they all looked exactly the same at the onset. But more than likely, the Izanagi Persona was itself, Izanagi, because of Izanami’s influence.

          • Snorlaxation

            As far as facing his True Self goes, no. Yu never faced his true self. You could say Izanami messed him up, by slightly hijacking his mind/existence or whatever, but it’s probably that the guy was just introverted and quiet and dull as sand because he never bothered connecting with people, since he was always moving.

            He had no sense of ‘Self’ at the beginning because he’d never really had one. An interest in cats. He liked kids (maybe?) He’s a bit (or a lot) selfless or likes to help? Little things that when added together, don’t equal much. It wasn’t until he found friends and family he could count on that he developed a fear, a darkness, (not saying that his previous darkness didn’t exist, but him being negative about ever having friends probably wasn’t very strong, like say, Mitsuo Kubo strong). The anime presented this in a way I always thought to be true: that Yu was afraid that once the case that binded them together was through, they’d all drift apart.

            Truth be told, this whole group had very little to nothing in common. “A group of misfits” I think Yosuke said.

          • thrak

            It looks like the most boring character happened to be the strongest one, exactly because he lacks personality traits, both good and bad ones XD I actually think Yu had something to hide and a shadow to overcome too. The story just never gave him the opportunity, it was built this way. He was just given an instant persona!
            Yu: But I am a complex charact….
            Izanami: Shut up and listen to what big sister says. You are Izanagi. End of conversation.
            Yu: …*Becomes numb protagonist*

          • Snorlaxation

            Probably. It’s funny thinking of Izanami as a scientist, preparing her subjects and then placing them in her environment. One big catalyst.

            I always just imagined Yu as kinda… waifing through life, not really attached to anything, parents that never really connected with him or saw him all that often (or tried much?).

          • NeptuniasBeard

            No, he literally did everything. He busted out of Orpheous and killed the shadow while Makoto stood there like a dope

          • Lastlight

            Lets be honest here

            1. Orpheus is so sexy looking

            2. In all honesty who would be surprised/ standing there like a dope after awaking your persona to see it get rip apart by death.

            3. Thanatos is also bad ass too

            4. Disregard everything but #2

          • DwillXXII

            You have to remember that it takes energy/”SP” to maintain and even summon a Persona. So no he wasn’t just “standing there like a dope”. He was actually summoning it and maintaining it. If that’s the case literally all persona users are derping around while their personas do everything.

          • Snorlaxation

            You have a point. It was pretty much doing all the work, but it was leaching off of his energy. Hence, why he wound up in the hospital for… was it a week? Damn.

          • DwillXXII

            Yeah probably cause Thanatos took wayy too much SP for him to handle at the time.

          • thrak

            …But does it really change anything?… I mean, it was Izanami’s power that allowed Yu to beat Yosuke’s shadow. And it was the power of Thanatos (Ryoji) that allowed Minato to beat Magician shadow. The only difference is…Magician shadow is a massive shadow, one of the strongest in the world while Yosuke is just Yosuke, puny little teenager. And another difference: Orpheus was awakened ON ITS OWN, unlike Izanagi. Izanagi is more like Thanatos, which is not Minato’s persona but Ryoji’s inside him. Orpheus that eventually becomes Messiah is from the beginning till end Minato’s own psyche, unlike Yu’s persona.

          • NeptuniasBeard

            Sure, Izanami helped out a bit. But all she did was hand Yu a weak, level 1/2 Persona. Yu still had to command and fight the shadow on his own. Sure, Thanatos is a crap persona, but it’s a high level crap persona and was able to fight autonomously. And you’re confusing importance with power. I doubt the Magician shadow was all that strong. It’s probably only stronger than the first full moon boss you fight, and that’s about it, and Tartarus bosses eclipse even that. it couldn’t even kill Akihiko.

            And Izanagi, is for all intents and purposes, Yu’s. The form it took was dependent on HIS psyche. Just like the killer morphed his own Izanagi. And even if you disagree, fact is, Izanagi is much closer to Orpheus’s level than Thanatos’. Izanagi’s appearence doesn’t give you a cutscene victory. Whether or not it’s HIS actual Persona is a moot point.

          • thrak

            Of course, Yu did a good job of defeating Yosuke’s shadow on his own, but using ‘rental’ persona and Minato did good job using his ‘rental’ persona defeating, I still stand by it, a much stronger shadow (Why use a power of Ryoji, the personification of Fall to destroy a weak shadow? Minato could use his own persona Orpheus for this if it was indeed weak. The whole point is that, at the current level of the team, NO ONE could save them from it but Ryoji’s persona that lived inside Minato). The point is, I repeat for 100th time, is that ORPHEUS (not Thanatos) is a persona awakened 100% on its own. Without even ‘a little’ push and without twins like Magatsu Izanagi. It even appeared BEFORE Thanatos, so it wasn’t even thanks to Thanatos.

          • NeptuniasBeard

            Well, can you really say he had NO help? He always had the potential, sure, but he still had DEATH inside of him. And Makoto had his own little push. Everyone in Persona 3 did. It’s called the Evoker. He would likely have not been able to summon his Persona without it. That doesn’t seem all that different from Izanami. The difference being that Izanami is a one time push.

            Remember, Izanami didn’t give Yu the Wild Card, he always had it. He’s summoned into the Velvet Room before reaching Inaba. So it’s likely that he did have an initial Persona, but it got warped into Izanagi.

            And I never said the Magician was weak per se, I’m just saying “one of the strongest in the world” is likely a drastic overestimation. It was stronger than what they could handle at the time, sure, but if you look closely, you’ll see that it’s just a bigger version of the generic masked blob shadow, with more arms. I’m sure that by the time the party was taking on the 2nd or 3rd full moon boss, the Magician would be considered child’s play.

          • Snorlaxation

            To NeptuniasBeard, DwillXXII, and Shippoyasha.

            You all have very valid points, If you don’t mind my saying so.

            Both casts triumph and suffer for several very important reasons.

            First, P3’s cast definitely was far from normal, because their Problems were far from normal. Dealing with a reality-altering world that kicked into effect at midnight that very few ever saw, fighting to save their city from rampaging monsters that no one else ever saw, Mitsuru was experimented on as a child (voluntarily for her father), Yukari and her mother had their name ruined due to their father being used as a scapegoat, Junpei had a shit home life and wanted to aspire to something greater, Akihiko got reality kicked into him when his best friend who he dragged into this fight, lost control and killed someone (shinjiro), Ken lost his mother and no one believed what he saw after cluminating in a lot of rage inside, Fuuka had to deal with her parent’s inferiority complex and their massive expectations and being bullied, Aigis (yeesh so much stuff) Koromaru was a very sweet dog who lost his owner.

            2. Both Protagonists started off by proving themselves on their own. HOWEVER. Yu received only slight assistance from Izanami by assiting him in awakening his Persona, which took on its form as Izanagi because of her. He fought with what little power he had (Izanagi level 1 pretty much), versus Makoto/Minato, who had DEATH on his side. Again, however, Makoto paid the price for that down the line. A very BIG price.

            3. Yu’s teammates all wanted to help find out the secrets behind the murder mystery, but vastly misjudged just how un prepared they were for the SOLVING aspect of that mystery. They grew strong, but very much so did REACT rather than ACT for the most part. However, with the death of their teacher, along with their amazement at their Senpai, Yu, they grew to trust each other, and Yu, and take the case more seriously as time went on, as well as when they realized that the ‘Murderer’ was on to them.

            4. The P3 team had to overcome their own bad histories even more so than the P4 cast did, since not all of them were able to face themselves so quickly (even though P4’s social Links show that they still had trouble accepting all that they learned about themselves). Mitsuru has TONS of baggage, Junpei is very jealous, Yukari had a crappy childhood and a mom who buckled under the pressure…. and the rest I already mentioned.

          • DwillXXII

            Yeah but what I’m saying is no one witnessed that besides Teddie. Whereas in P3 everyone saw him take out the full moon shadow. At that moment he gained the respect of 3 people. At least when the P3 MC was declared leader, Junpei objected. In P4 no one questions the Mary Sue EVER, not once even though Yosuke is the one who is really doing everything.

            It’s fine if none of them want to be leader but like I said that’s not realistic. It’s even more unrealistic when no one questions it.

            Rise is SO flirty in golden that it’s ridiculous. Kanji does NOT respect Yosuke to the same degree as MC. Yosuke literally tells you “ya know what you’re pretty amazing” several times in the game.

            My judgement isn’t clouded, it’s clear. I’m just stating facts.

          • Snorlaxation

            It’s true that the P4 cast treated the Murder mystery less seriously than they should/could’ve, but it’s also true that they did treat it seriously from the start. Two deaths, one of them someone they knew and had recently talked to, and the death of their teacher later. Maybe they did bounce back a little too unbeliveably with all the vacationing and fun they had (which really was Atlus getting them to bond in ways that P3 didn’t have).

            Yosuke and Naoto did see this as just a game or whatever at first, but both grew out of this after a while. Yosuke admits he saw this as an escape from his boring life, but that he learned to be responsible and appreciate his home and his new friends. Naoto only saw this as a new mystery to be solved, but then it starts affecting her crediblity when she wouldn’t let the case get cleanly swept up, and risked her reputation and her Life, to solve it.

            Kanji and Yosuke actually get along pretty well when you talk to them outside of cutscenes and whatnot. Like in dugeons and places around town.

            The MC’s of 3 and 4 were actually not as blank as many think. Little things like reacting to Tanaka’s amazing commodities on the TV, or options in dialogue showed just how different they were from the start.

          • NeptuniasBeard

            Yosuke was also there, and although he passed out during the battle, he can put 2 and 2 together. So that’s two witnesses, only one less than Makoto.

            And once more, the one that nominated Narukami leader was Yosuke himself. He didn’t volunteer. And let’s do a roll call of who all was there when he was appointed leader.

            Teddie: Who was already calling him sensei and saw Narukami fight shadows before anyone.

            Yosuke: Who didn’t want to handle the pressure of leadership and was fine taking a back seat to the guy who seems cool headed at all times

            Chie: Who’s first action was to run into Yukiko’s castle by herself with no gameplan. By her own admission is not that smart, and is less experienced than both Narukami and Yosuke

            Yukiko: The first rescuee. Who mostly just wants to help

            Which of these seems most qualified to be leader? Yosuke. And he passed on the job for perfectly understandable reason.

            Why would they argue about who was made leader? What would be their argument? Why would any of them want to be leader? You say it’s unrealistic, but give no reason as to why. None of these characters showed any “I wanna be a leader” quality. Them arguing would just be raising a conflict for their own sake.

            Kanji does respect all of them. Yosuke and Kanji takes jabs at eachother, but he still calls him senpai, and Yosuke is shown to still care for Kanji. You just get more alone time with Kanji.

            And most, if not all those times Yosuke calls Yu amazing, it’s not in a worship sense, it’s because he admires his ability to always keep his cool.

          • DwillXXII

            Yes it MAKES sense as to why he’s the leader but he doesn’t show that he deserves it. They just go with and don’t EVER question it. It’s unrealistic because within a group of people it’s not easy to become leader and gain everyone’s respect unless you’re Yu, the ultimate Mary Sue.

            Yosuke’s comments to Kanji are just asshole remarks. They don’t show that he cares at all and like I said the level of respect that Kanji has for MC and Yosuke aren’t even close at all.

            I’m GLAD it’s not in a worship sense or else he’d be just another Teddie but that doesn’t change the fact that he is literally sucking up to you when he can.

          • Shippoyasha

            Oh yeah. ‘Facts’ you selectively take out at your convenience. The constant insistence P3 is perfect and P4 is fatally flawed. It’s all your extremely biased opinions. Not to mention nobody seems to know what Mary Sues are anymore. It’s just something people say to feel good about ranting off about something.

          • DwillXXII

            What facts did I selectively take out. Instead of saying that and leaving. Please leave examples. I didn’t even say P3 was perfect once. What are you reading? Geez, please learn to be mature intead of displaying fanboyism.

          • Shippoyasha

            Yu earned the recognition because of his combat and organizational prowess. You are busting Yu just for being a player character. It’s just the mechanics of the storytelling more than anything. They could have made it an ensemble cast deal where we can control all other characters, but that’s not a realistic goal for an RPG. P3 was precisely the same in that regard.

            And you are constantly busting to demonize the investigation team, but there is no reason to believe they have the onus to stop everything when they expected the cops to do their jobs. You can’t just selectively take events of the story outside their context to trash on them. We know what you are doing there.

          • DwillXXII

            Organizational prowess? Yosuke was the one who organized everything. DId you play the game?

            I’m not “demonizing” anything. It’s clear that the IT could’ve tried much harder. They had the onus to prevent Rise, Kanji and Naoto’s capture did they not? Yet they STILL failed. And stop speaking for everyone else. There is no WE. You’re you and I’m me. That’s it.

          • Shippoyasha

            By ‘organizational prowess’, I meant Yu’s status as the player character. That’s a definitive element to him. We are not just watching cutscenes of him doing everything. Our actions basically represent Yu in the game.

            Also, the team never lost faith in the police until way later in the story. We just have a better perspective about it with the god’s eye view of the game. That’s not how it was for the game character in the game. They can’t just abandon their daily lives and play the hero, especially when Dojima (And Adachi) is wise to it. If they forced their hands, it would have likely ended up way worse than it did.

            Again, you are just trying to find any angles to go on the offensive there. I’m not even sure you’d be open to ANY kind of retort at all. Your mind is completely set in stone it seems to me.

          • DwillXXII

            Player character has nothing to do with “organizational prowess” though.

            It’s not even abandoning their daily lives but it would’ve been nice to see them have more meetings and deduct more or search more instead of reiterating the same facts over and over again.

            I’m not “set in stone”. I actually love P4/P4G. Playing it for the third time again.

          • Shippoyasha

            That is the thing I guess. I don’t even disagree with you that the storytelling could have been more fluid and it would have opened the up narrative a ton if we could switch perspective around. Like it’d be fun living daily lives with the other cast too. That’s something I want P5 to try to do: A true ensemble cast experience.

            I feel a lot of Yu’s story failings and Mary Sue discussion happens because we ONLY see it from his side. And to be fair for you, he could have used more melodramatic story arcs too, especially early in the story.

            Funny coincidence is that I’m working through the Answer recently as well. I started another P3 playthrough after being hyped by the latest P3 movie.

          • Shippoyasha

            A lot of negative assumptions after another there. The investigation team never considered the cases as a hobby. That’s just something detractors said and what the team realized was their struggle brought them together and made them into close friends. That has nothing to do with trivializing the case. They all had their lives on the line. It’s outright slanderous to say they didn’t take the cases seriously.

            Also, P3 protag was a destined wildcard. He had his power before Yu did in their respective stories. And P3 protag was made the leader due to his potential. He was forced right into leadership even making it a plotpoint of the cast not trusting him early on because of that. Yu had to prove himself by helping lead the team through two dungeons and three rescues. Yu earned all his stripes despite Izanami meddling. Yu was only a talk of the class because he was a transfer student not because the classmates were ready to worship him.

            All the romance empowerment for Yu angle is overplayed as well, considering P3 protag can do the same, except with far less personable attitude. You don’t even need to make all the girls his romantic interests even if you max out all social links.

            And saying Yu commanded his pals is FALSE. His friends always called Yu up for THEIR favors, actually. Yosuke was pretty much using Yu as a workhorse for weeks. Also, a leader should be allowed to gather people for important events. Putting that like it is Yu’s negative trait is absurd.

            I can understand if the marketing for Yu being bigger than life can irk some people. But Yu is not the epitome of might in his own story. Just like the final battle indicated, he wouldn’t be so powerful without his friends.

          • DwillXXII

            It’s not slanderous to say that at all. Yosuke took charge to do it cause he was bored. Naoto also admitted to doing it as a hobby. Sure their intentions were good but you also have to understand that if this case really mattered to them they would focus on it more. They weren’t proactive AT ALL. They were reactive. Ehhh, lets just wait until someone gets thrown in then we’ll try and save them. Or how about lets just wait until we see who’s on the Midnight Channel then do something about it. It was obviously on the backburner. You know another sad thing is that they KNEW who the victims were beforehand and they still failed to do something. Like I said, they didn’t take it seriously. They weren’t looking for the perp like Dojima. They were just waiting around.

            He was thrown into leadership why? Because he reacted when Yukari couldn’t. He did this in front of EVERYONE in SEES at the time. He didn’t become a leader because he was the first to summon a persona, it could even be argued that it wasn’t even cause of his wildcard. It was due to the situation. Mitsuru was the communicator/analyst at the time and out of the newbies who proved themselves? He did. You can’t see say that Yu led them through two dungeons and 3 rescues. No Yosuke/Teddie were the one that were initiating everything. Throughout the game Yosuke acts more like a leader with Yu being his ace.

            It’s funny how you say that P3 MC has a far less personable attitude when they are both literally blank slates with choices given to the player.

            Did you play the game? Read again what I said. Yu was the one to decide when to go into the TV. Funny how despite living their lives they were all available to go into the TV anytime whether to train or save someone. I’m not bent on hating the guy. I like him but the fanboyism is too strong.

          • Shippoyasha

            The comments Yosuke and Naoto made is the smaller, more frank appraisals about their situation as kids trying to solve an impossible case. And you can’t fault for them for being reactive. They were figuring out how the Midnight Channel worked almost throughout the whole first half of the game. And remember Dojima almost arresting Yu again and again for trying to be proactive? That was an actual plotline. You can’t fault Yu and his team for that.

            And you are conveniently trying to change your talking points there. One moment you say Yu had too much leadership power and now you say he has too few. That makes zero sense. The leadership position in P4 worked in a communal sense, not like the more organizational sense of P3. Comparing them directly doesn’t even work. I am not even saying P3 protag is bad or their situation is more suspect. Your onesided points at P4 can actually be applied to P3 just the same.

            And P3 protag IS more glum. That’s something more estsblished in the core plot itself. Yu is also pretty quiet as a character but not the same kind of glumness that P3 protag wore on his sleeves. I say that as a point I love about P3 protag. That may be a charmpoint all his own, opposite Yu’s more open demeanor.

            I don’t think it’s much a matter of fanboyism as it’s that the guy simply has a likable design to him and he plays a good role as a leader. All the overt praise are just memes. He doesn’t even have the kind of social and physical powers in the canon as the memes about him does. He is not ACTUALLY a pimp or actually holds the world in his hands. That’s just a memetic joke.

          • DwillXXII

            No Yosuke and Naoto DID treat the mystery as a hobby. Yosuke was almost like another Adachi.

            I didn’t say he had too much leadership at all. Please learn to read before you say something. I said he instantly gained respect and was liked instantly. Dojima suspected him because he was always at the scene of the crime not because he was proactive. Please don’t grasp for straws. The P4 cast were not proactive at all. The most they would do is just repeat the same facts over and over again.

            Yeah I agree that the P3 MC is more “glum” and the P4 MC looks more outgoing but appearances do not equal personality and we were talking about personality.

            The memes are a reflection of the internet and like I said I just think he is just too overrated. Again just my opinion.

          • Shippoyasha

            He was ‘liked’ because he helped the other characters out. They didn’t worship him or anything even well into the story. That was something the fandom latched onto, not something the game established. It doesn’t even make sense to make Yu a melodramatic character when he’s just a transfer student in a rural setting. You are just taking every circumstances of his into a negative. It’s just one sided bashing is what this is.

          • DwillXXII

            They ALL helped each other out. It’s not like Yu did everything by himself. The only real character he helped was Teddie and Yosuke. After that everything was a team effort. Again I’m not bashing just stating facts. Don’t let your fanboyism blind you please.

          • Shippoyasha

            It’d be nice if you can ease up the ‘fanboy’ jabs. I AM a huge Persona 3 fan too, you know. I just think you are being too unfair, not that you don’t completely have a point. I’m just saying there’s enough counterpoints in the story as-is. I’m not even saying the storytelling was perfect. But it’s not a completely broken story you are painting it out to be. You are just focusing too much on the negatives.

          • DwillXXII

            Fair enough. I know I might come off as not liking 4 but I actually love it.

          • Shippoyasha

            That’s cool with me. I just think the Mary Sue ideals can be discussed for way too long. Though the funny thing is the new anime does give Yu some truly godlike ‘New Game+’ powers. Now to see if the other cast are OP too.

        • Christopher Pedersen

          Where have you been all of my life? I’ve never understood the adoration for such an aloof character who spends 80 % of the game being driven by the plot, unlike the female counterpart, who is driving the plot forward and acting like a leader..

          • Snorlaxation

            P3 was my introduction to the Persona universe…physically. It was the first game I played. P2 eternal punishment I heard about, looked up, and then learned about Innocent Sin and P1, a few years before I played P3.

            After everything I read about the old games, I’ll admit, I was a tiny bit disappointed by the P3 MC and some other things, but it was all so new and exciting that it melted into the background. Even so, P3P brought it all back and really made me appreciate that, for all his cool, reliable, introvert-ness, P3’s MC is pretty …eh, overall, but I’m glad that the reintroduction of the Persona series took off in spite of that. I can appreciate him, appreciate how his friends feel about him and his strong importance to the plot, but someone who’s actions, that you control, are the only way they show their care for their friends that they then sacrifice themselves to save… I dunno. Feels like there was some footage missing there.

            I like him, but he’s far, FAR, from my favorite character. Heck, Tatsuya would be higher up.

          • Christopher Pedersen

            What I loved about the original Persona 3 wasn’t the Male MC, as much as it was the characters and the dark underlying themes to its plot, mixed up with the high school elements — The reason why I love the female protagonist is because she juxtaposes everything the game is about and that adds a really cool perspective to it. She acts kind, free-spirited and happy, but you can’t help but feel it’s all a shield to hide the sadness of the tragedy that has befallen her, in regards to her parents. During the more serious moments, like with Yukari, or Junpei, her dialogue is less enthusiatic and more serious and you can almost feel the tension in her tone even though she has none. I feel Minato (if you wanna call him that) lacked all of this. I don’t hate him, I liked him well enough I suppose, but that was more because he functioned as a vehicle for the growth of the other characters. I never felt he drove the plot as much as I thought Yu did for Persona 4 or Minako did. The plot drove him instead, but his presence helped strengthen the resolve of the other cast members. Persona 3 had the advantage of having a stronger sense of progression in its narrative. The people you fight with aren’t your friends in the beginning, they are more along the lines of mutual allies. And i love that transition from allies to closest friends at the end, hence why I actually enjoyed The Answer, because it showcased the growth of the characters and somewhat the effect of why the protagonist was important to them, you know? Because they’ve been through a lot more than 4’s cast have, at least that’s what I feel. I like both games equally because they carry cons and pros that balance each entry out. If Atlus had made a Persona 3 Golden, then I’d probably say 3 was the stronger game, but alas it is not. 4 has the advantage of not havng a single character in its main cast that I didn’t like. I sadly can’t say the same for Persona 3, but that’s different story.

          • Snorlaxation

            I honestly agree with everything you just posted.

            There are aspects that bugged me about Junpei and Yosuke, and how they treated other characters, but overall, I enjoyed both casts (P4’s more) but yes, P3 really gave it their all and sacrificed for a happy ending that was only bittersweet.

            Everything you said about Makoto/Minato was definitely spot on. His biggest contribution was helping those around him (partially by social link) but mostly just by being their in the plot, and acting as a pinacle of stalwart strength.

          • Lastlight

            In all honesty
            The reason I like P3 alot better than the other personas is because of the dark gritty feel.
            Yeah Persona 2 had that too but in P3 the gun play was just amazing, something I wish they kept.
            It’s almost like it was a burden taking a shot at your head, like something can go wrong at any moment. (Only at the beginning though)

            If P2 had the evoker aspect of that game…It would be the best hands down for me

            Edit: I just remembered
            The theme of persona 3
            Wasn’t it death after all memento mori :)

          • Snorlaxation

            That gun summoning mechanic was definitely an eye opener. very cool. And P2 and P3 had very different but both very dark atmospheres.

          • Lastlight

            True True

        • Lastlight

          I still wonder why they completely forget about the masterpiece Persona 2 came out to be….

          • Snorlaxation

            Honestly, Persona 2 was an underappreciated gemstone of a game. It was essentially a jack of all trades, it had everything. Great characters, great story, great gameplay. The story of P2 (both Innocent Sin and Eternal Punishment) still moves me in ways that no other game has. I love the cast and gameplay of all the Persona games, but P2 had all the components and didn’t even need all the amazing battle sweets that P4 Golden has (that I love).

            I’ll always hope to get the P2 EP remake in the states.

      • NeptuniasBeard

        This comment kinda reads like those “older is always better” posts. But I’ll bite.

        Persona 2 has been a non thing for YEARS. Tatsuya didn’t just lose to Yu, he lost to pretty much every P3/P4 character, including a dog. That he even manages to place is nothing short of a miracle.

        P4 MC beat P3 MC because not only is Persona 4 more popular, but it’s characters are more likeable (helped greatly by the anime). Hell look at the gap between P3 MC and freaking YOSUKE

        But I’m curious why you think that the results should be any different.

    • NeptuniasBeard

      This is a recent one, yeah? Funny how the placement’s pretty much the exact same, with the exception of Adachi being in their (so who got shafted?

      • Inergio

        Adachi was always popular unlike Marie(so lets put unpopular character into game because someone from our team like her). Here you have first week, so you can imagine who is below 20. I wouldnt be surprised if Marie was in last places.

    • Shippoyasha

      Let’s wait before jumping to conclusions. They seem to be aiming for P3 character parity to a point and the final Persona 3 movie isn’t out. They can use P3 characters as tiein for the movie releases.

      • thrak

        I am still waiting for Messiah to come. :)

    • Addy

      Woohoo! FeMC beat people!

  • MasterScrub

    I thought the character’s titles were supposed to be mean spirited and blown completely out of proportion, not be 100% accurate.

  • Rafael Budzinski

    …bring Tatsuya back from the limbo Atlus, and you’ll have my respect.

  • Ritsuioko23

    They’re really bringing out everything eh? This game is going to be great. Now I can get over the horrible game chrono phantasma is and enjoy this, and undernight in birth.

  • thrak

    Tsk tsk they are even admitting she was based on a simple tsundere stereotype…

    • KoRLumen

      What’s wrong with tsunderes?

  • The Watcher

    I remember when I picked up P4A day 1 at the game store, the cashier was telling me how Vincent from Catherine was going to be a DLC character. At first i didn’t believe it but he made it sound so convincing. haha good times.

    • ShinNeoGranzon

      I wish that he had been a DLC character. Maybe we’ll get him in this game? There’s already 2 DLC characters so why not more?

  • MSJ

    MARIE’S DA BASEDGODDESS <333

  • DesmaX

    Oh, I was wishing that her One Hit K.O. special would be her reciting one of her poems.

    Not my kind of character, so probably not going to buy this DLC

  • Ms_Fortune

    Gonna laugh my ass if she winds up being insanely overpowered.

    Oh well, least I got my training mode dummy

  • Ziggy Wish

    Not, my favorite character, but don’t hate her. She have her good moments too and will be picking her up just for the sake of a complete roster. But Atlus that gas attended though?

  • thrak

    Okay, people, who else hated the Golden (ReturnToInaba, I mean) ending aka ‘We all went through therapy and changed completely’??? I just remembered that one played a huge part in my dislike of Marie.

    • Laith Rem

      I know, characters developing positively without external help and after a healthy year? Screw that.

      That’s sarcasm.

      • thrak

        Developing positively, plotwise is always ‘developing interestingly’. They just became boring non-characters. Is this good development, really?

        • Laith Rem

          Yosuke just let go of his “oh god feminine stuff get it away” attitude but he still is the disappointing prince. Naoto continued her acceptance that she is who she is along with Kanji. They just reflect that in how they dress not in how they act, they are still the same in that way (I mean Kanji still fails so hard in the last scene.) Yukiko just let go of her hang-ups and insecurities, hence her wearing anything other than red, she is still miss ditzy, airhead. Chie still wants to protect the weak, but now she is also a bit more emotional. Rise has accepted that she is Risette but she is still the flirty girl that adores her friends.

          They stopped being teenagers and became more grown ups but they are still the same people with a lot of flaws and quirks. The epilogue is just reinforcing the development of their arcs while still being as realistic as possible. Calling them non-characters is implying that being a healthy person is wrong in fictionland and that’s just not right on so many levels.

          Of course you bring plot into it and that’s a problem because the Persona series is character driven not plot driven. Mainline SMT is plot driven because the plot is the important thing. Persona has the characters take the main seat and it’s an exploration of the bonds of people and stuff.

          Basically, you missed the point of the last scene.

          • thrak

            To be honest, I have nothing against your point of view, but to me it looks like you are seeing too much sense and reason in this questionable fanservice episode.

          • Laith Rem

            Or you are not seeing enough. Could be both really. It’s our own biases at work.

          • Snorlaxation

            I think letting us see how they looked and changed, So Far in to the future, maybe have been a bit of a misstep, like writing yourself into a corner kind of thing? But beyond that, I have to say, I was so happy to see them all doing so well. One of my, and I’m sure one of Yu’s, worries was how well his family/friends would do when everything was said and done. Not to toot his own horn, but he did have a good deal to do with everyone developing.

            But yeah, that’s still including Arena 1 and 2, and we don’t entirely know just how much has been added to the plot with 2, or with Q for that matter, which I believe? all take place before the Golden Epilogue.

    • DeadLineDance

      Eh, I didn’t hate that aspect of the Golden ending so much.
      Other than Kanji getting glasses when THERE’S NO INDICATION HE EVER NEEDED THEM. I mean, was he wearing contacts the whole time and we never knew? Or did they just want to make him as stereotypically metrosexual as possible?

  • Benjamin Tyler

    Mai Waifu!!!

  • Lastlight

    You know a series is good when people argue over which game was the best in the series.

    • DwillXXII

      You know I actually enjoy reading it as long as people are mature about it.

      • thrak

        You enjoy reading rants as long as people are mature? So you basically mean you never enjoy reading them :)

        • ShadowDivz

          Well played.

    • Land of Green Pasture

      yep yep… moar comment = moar fans, more hater = more player, more player = atlus win

      REALIZE PEOPLE!! YOU’VE BEEN DANCING ON ATLUS’ HAND!! all the time!! ALL THE TIME!! THEY TRICKED YOU!!

      • thrak

        I don’t mind being tricked by Atlus…

  • Steven Higgins

    I just realized, even by pre ordering this and get the special edition of Q, you still won’t have all the Major in game Arcana. No jester or Aeon

    • Laith Rem

      They are repeats tho. They are from the Thoth deck I think? Something like that.

      • Steven Higgins

        Yeah, but the designs ares still different. And then there’s Hunger, even though there are no Personas of that Arcana so I don’t mind as much but it still has a different design.

    • Land of Green Pasture

      I suppose they will sell it individually, regarding their popularity of the character that represents them

      • Steven Higgins

        Possibly, but I don’t see people buying the two cards unless they were sold as a whole set including the Minor Arcana, or packaged with a game maybe Dancing All Night.

  • sillyfudgemonkeys

    Awww, I was kinda hoping Marie’s ultimate attack would be her reciting one of her poems aloud and then the opponent falls asleep listening to it, then she gets angry and electrocutes them. XD Kinda like Jigglypuff from Pokemon….At least I got the thunderbolt thing right. XD

  • Kornelious

    She’s a good addition to the roster :)

    BTW, is September 30th the official release date or is it a placeholder?

    • we don’t know yet. they haven’t really announced a date.

  • Dyne

    And she need a persona why?

  • DeadLineDance

    At least Kaguya’s a gorgeous Persona. Love that design.
    Mildly interesting note: I always thought that if Ai Ebihara were playable, her Persona ought to be Kaguya. (Princess who demands impossible presents from her suitors, came from the Moon [Arcana])

    • thrak

      But Kaguya is from AEON arcana, pal…

      • DeadLineDance

        I came up with this idea YEARS before Golden came out.
        Read the myth. Kaguya-hime came from the moon.
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tale_of_the_Bamboo_Cutter

        • thrak

          She IS from the moon, her arcana is still Aeon. I know the legend too, please don’t make assumptions, especially when it is such a minor issue

          • DeadLineDance

            Persona 4 came out in 2008. I played it in 2010 or 11, I forget which. Golden did not come out until 2012. There was no Aeon Arcana in P4 yet. Kaguya had never been a Persona before. So I decided that she could be Ai Ebihara’s Moon Arcana Persona. Then Golden came out in 2012, and well, my little fanfic-ish idea was shot.

          • thrak

            Shot?…Oh god, you are using such dramatic language… Lets say it was just thrown into a TV…

          • ShadowDivz

            But isn’t the moon Arcana revolving around Illusions/deception? I still remember that teacher’s talk from P3.

            Technically if not aeon Kaguya should be lovers. Because of all the men who fell in love with her and wanted to shower her with gifts.

          • DeadLineDance

            I think you could argue for multiple Arcana for many different Personas (and in fact, some Personas have switched Arcana between games). It would make sense for Kaguya to be Lovers as well.

          • Snorlaxation

            Your idea sounds like it would’ve been fun. Initial Persona for Ai? Or her ultimate one?

          • DeadLineDance

            Initial. I didn’t bother to think through to the “evolved” one, since the initial ones are cooler anyway ;)
            Also, Naoki would have Take-Minakata. Seriously, imagine how the story would have been different if Naoki was in your party.

          • Snorlaxation

            Jeepers that would’ve been … cool! But sad.
            I really liked his character. Very real with how he didn’t even know how to feel about it all, and for awhile you could tell he was just being so overwhelmed that he was pretty much paused. I liked him. And yeah, good match up with your Personas. I still remember Take-Minakata looking all confined and forlorn. And the Ai and Kaguya match makes me laugh. Both really put their men through the ringer.

  • Ecchitori-san

    She’s DLC right? :(
    Oh well, I still have my Yukiko and Elizabeth. :P

  • DanteMasamune

    Oh this is cool. I may not like her that much but well she is hot (probably the hottest female of the P3/4 cast….IMO) so I welcome her in a fighting game. Plus I got Adachi so I got everything I wanted in a Persona fighting game (no not really until I get Tatsuya and Maya I won’t be fully satisfied).

  • friendly neighborhood_dude

    I really love her title and I think it’s the best one since they added new fighters.

  • friendly neighborhood_dude

    She has a whether metar for her attacks? Look above her EX metar.

    • natchu96

      She DOES do weather forecasts in Inaba now . . .

      Of course, she isn’t predicting squat, but hey. Nobody said anything about honest business.

      • friendly neighborhood_dude

        Hey you don’t see me complaining. And of course you gotta work for a living, otherwise how would she beat the other girls and win Swag-kun’s heart!

        I still remember her bizarre cake… good times.

  • Triplicity

    sproing

    • EtherealEarth

      The nose stabbing must hurt like hell.

    • Guest

      yo we need some hitbox data on dat nose!

    • Jadfish

      The nose hitbox! I can see it!!

  • TheCynicalReaper

    Yet more proof nothing but P4G is canonical
    Should be fun to play, though.

  • Espoir

    Why did they not make her a playable character in P4G then -_- She would feel more like ‘the cast’ if she actually went with them during their rescue missions :/

    • friendly neighborhood_dude

      Well after you save her you’re pretty much done with rescuing, unless you mean the final fight against you know who…

    • miju

      If you think about it, they only messed with the story in P4G. Additional scenarios to the ones that were already in P4. The actual dungeon gameplay progression formula wasn’t changed. There were things added of course but I meant the victim kidnapped -> dungeon -> new playable character. For everyone who keeps complaining that Marie was shoehorned in, they could’ve done it a lot worse.

      If they were to add Marie as a playable, the best times to do it would’ve been after Void Quest and Heaven since those were dungeons where you didn’t get a new teammate.

      But the point of Void Quest was that you didn’t get a new character because 1) Mitsuo didn’t accept his shadow and thus wasn’t granted power showing that not everyone can do it and 2) you were supposed to feel that the TV murders were over with the capture of Mitsuo (even if it was blatantly obvious otherwise). There wasn’t any need to rush back into the TV until Secret Base happens and so no new playable characters were given to you in this time period.

      Adding her in after Heaven would’ve made more sense, since you defeat Kunino-sagiri which would’ve restored some of Marie’s powers to her. At that point they could’ve just shoved her in saying she wants to help, but they didn’t, probably because she’s a bystander to Adachi’s shenanigans. Everyone else has strong feelings to oppose him. Placing her as playable at this time also means she can participate in the Ameno-sagiri fight, who is another part of herself. It’d be weird story-wise to have her do that, which is another reason for ATLUS to not add her in here.

      She’d also feel kind of cheap if she were added before Hollow Forest considering that everyone else excluding Yu had to go through some emotional trauma to gain their persona. Again like the Void Quest thing, you were supposed to feel that things were “over”. She could’ve been added after Hollow Forest, but why bother at that point? You pretty much skip directly to the final day after Hollow Forest ends, with no real reason to enter the TV between February to March. The final dungeon is even “hidden” from the player, happening on the last day. There would’ve been no time for Marie to gain EXP/skills/etc while all the other playable characters had a lot of chances to catch up with your party if you chose to use them. Hollow Forest was an optional dungeon too, IIRC only happening if you did her S. Link.

      With all that considered, in a game design perspective, adding her into P4G as a story addition rather than a gameplay addition was the best thing to do for the game. And before someone mentions PQ, she’s grouped with the rest of the Velvet Room crew as navigation and you have to remember that PQ happens during the festival in the middle of P4’s plot.

      • Shippoyasha

        Well, in essence, it would be silly to have her playable for the final month of the story.

  • Jadfish

    Do people like Marie? Or are someone at Atlus just forcing their waifu into stuff?

    • thrak

      I have my suspicion about Hashino and whoever writes the script…

    • I like Marie. Get out, Lamething!

  • Hero_ZaFakeo

    This is all old by now probably, but I just felt like I needed to say something that gets heard about the whole Marie issue. Because really, it’s about bonus editions and SMT/Atlus created games that are related to SMT endings in general.

    In any edition, you meet some god or godess and they either are telling you to do junk all the time, are random mythic figures and may even function as a final boss.

    Did ya get mad about Manitou or the ability to whoop the Kuzunoha line’s butt? Was the True Demon ending path utterly disgusting with no redeeming feature? Waah, he’s a secret boss in Digital Devil Saga! What does it meaaan? Was the Answer leaving you wishing the entire cast just sacrificed themselves along with Nyx? You even had a possible hate object in Ryoji/Pharos. And heck, you people got more of an explanation for Marie than we did for Goddess of Tokyo whatever thing lady that looked like our resident AI, Burroughs.

    The way I see it, Atlus made an optional true ending character a girl and a social link with a bit of a rough personality and that was enough for everyone to grab reasons to hate her. They used her as a device to finally use all the Izanagi and Izanami incarnations at once, then the complaint is that IZANAGI is important to IZANAMI. God forbid she sees something in someone who earned a representation of her husband in strongest form. Yeah, canon waifu salt aside, at least it makes sense from a theological standpoint in a game based on social and theological commentary and storytelling devices. Bonus editions that add story content always throw weird shiz at you, but at the very least it’s an attempt to enhance the story that is for the most part successful.

    You may not like the “enhanced” version of events, but the creators seem to be proud of what they did to close out the story and this is by no means the Shiva wipeout of sanity that is the plot of the Lightning trilogy. At least respect that.

  • ShadowDivz

    Shit Marie’s playable?! Does this get any freakin’ bett– Her persona is KAGUYA?!
    *FAINTS*

  • Kevin Lima Ferreira

    Still waiting for Minato/Makoto and Shinjiro as DLC characters even if they won’t have anything to do with the story mode.

  • Phantom R

    “Her instant-kill attack involves busting out some fog and thunderbolts to take out enemies in one hit.”

    that explains the red fog

    goddammit marie

    this is why we don’t cheat

  • Tienron
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