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Siliconera Sounds Off: Why Is The Western DS JRPG Market In Decline?

By Ishaan . November 22, 2009 . 4:00pm

Most of us at Siliconera are fans of RPGs. In Japan, the DS and PSP are the primary gaming devices and have been home to a broad variety of RPGs. The problem is, we’ve also been hearing from publishers that it’s hard to make money in the portable RPG market in the West, which would explain why some games like 7th Dragon or Tales of Innocence haven’t been tossed onto the localization belt yet.

Naturally, this is a cause for concern, both at present and for the future, and something we very much wanted to discuss with site readers. And so, this week’s SSO topic is:

Publishers have been complaining that the DS RPG market is in decline in the West. Why do you think this is?

Participants:

Script Editor, NIS America – Nick Doerr

Siliconera – Ishaan Sahdev

Siliconera – Spencer Yip

Nick: Publishers are saying this, eh? I don’t think it’s actually the market that’s in decline, but that there’s an oversaturation of RPGs on the DS, splitting sales in an already pretty small niche. It’s like the go-to platform for new, "too traditional," risky, or low-budget RPGs that would otherwise never see the light of day. In a sense, it’s fantastic for taking the reins and letting more ideas and games get made that wouldn’t even get past pre-production concept brainstorm napkin-drawing sessions. I think that’s the first step, anyway.

But if publishers are saying this because they aren’t quite seeing the profits from a handheld with a userbase of 110+ million, it’s probably due to the pricing structure implemented by Nintendo and retailers. It seems like the "king" of any console generation has the most unfriendly pricing structure; meaning they ask for a fairly significant monetary percentage of each game sold. It would be rude to discuss specifics, but depending on the type of cartridge/disc you need, and how many units you feel you can sell or order, and the retailers you’re trying to get to carry any particular game… it’s not uncommon for the "king" platforms to absorb quite a chunk of potential profit, under the assumption their more vast userbase will lead to more vast sales. Which, coupled with my previous comment on oversaturation, makes it increasingly difficult to do.

Ishaan: That’s a great point and one I’m inclined to agree with. There’s definitely been a steady stream of RPGs on the DS in the past three years. It’s become a platform for both old and new, and anyone that’s a fan of Japanese games likely owns one. As you pointed out, a plethora of any genre results in oversaturation of the market, which probably means the publishers seeing the most success are the ones with the most loyal fans. Then again, even Atlus only expected 25,000 sold for Devil Survivor…

Pricing structure is, unfortunately, something not many people on the consumer side ever get to hear about, which means you see a lot of people demanding to know why game X isn’t being published outside of Japan. I’ve done it, too, being particularly hard on Namco Bandai who seemingly neglect to publish every Japanese game of theirs that catches my interest (although I’m convinced that they’re partly to blame, at least with regard to Tales). It’s times like these that I’m glad for fan-translations and for publishers like Xseed who pick up what no one else will, although, it’s pretty apparent by now that this is far from an easy way to make a living. And yet, somebody has to do it if we want to keep these games alive. I wish there were a way to make the publishing process a little more transparent in cases like these. The kind of games we enjoy would benefit from an understanding between the producer and consumer more than any other.

I would imagine digital distribution on PSP is something that you guys plan to take full advantage of at NISA, Nick?

Nick: Naturally. Not just NISA, but I think any publishers working with the PSP platform are going to slap up a digital copy of their game on the PlayStation Store. On a personal level, I’m not exactly enthralled that digital copies tend to cost the same as physical units, but each version has its fans. Some like actually having something in their hands (*waves) but some like the decreased load times and instant access. Heck, digitally purchasing Class of Heroes, for instance, is about the only way to get it. Atlus apparently couldn’t get GameStop to carry it, so few copies were sold or produced. For that, digital distribution is great, especially for smaller publishers who tend to release "hard-to-find" games.

Spencer: Speaking of Class of Heroes on PSN, the English version got re-released as a PlayStation Store exclusive in Hong Kong. Digital distribution can also help publishers bring their games to other countries.

I’ve heard the similar comments about DS carts costing a bundle, but publishers still seem or seemed eager to localize Nintendo DS games. Perhaps, because they don’t contain any or as much voice acting. Compared to a console game, they cost less to localize. Tales of Hearts has voice acting. Couple that with cartridge prices and… well, you get the idea. Seventh Dragon… it hasn’t been announced yet, but I wouldn’t give up hope on it.

TAGS: Siliconera Sounds Off

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atmey

Everybody got HDTV, I prefer to play Vesperia over Red Gem Saga.

TokyoGuy

Hmm...one of my reactions is a take on the matter similar to what happened with the North American anime industry: after the initial explosion, publishers brought over anything and everything they could, even if the games were crap. The initial draw was there (from the catalyst, Final Fantasy 7) and thus the games sold, but then as the genre became more commonplace and less niche, the "new market"'s interest started to decline. As a result, less and less people are buying the new games simply because they aren't interested anymore.

I think games like Final Fantasy continue to sell overseas because they appeal to the mainstream RPG fan, but games like 7th Dragon (with its 2-D old school approach) and the ENTIRE DS "Tales of" series have yet to be localized because they require too much time and money and won't generate enough sales.

It's always interesting to see which games DO get picked up for release overseas, The Dark Spire, Ys I and II (heck just about everything Atlus publishes overseas), or Class of Heroes, etc. These games are highly niche products that, IMHO, should never be brought over on the assumption they will generate lots of money. Yet I have this odd feeling that someone at Atlus (and the other companies) believes they will be successful, less they not take the venture. Then, when the games are not, they (or other companies who are using these games as a way to test the waters for their own intentions) pass up on other products, even if they may be more successful.

7th Dragon and Tomato Adventure (which no doubt no one here even knows) Soma Bringer, Destiny Links and Mother 3 are just a handful of good games that were never localized, despite the fact that they had the potential to sell far more copies than many of the games that were. Though 7th Dragon is unreasonably difficult, to the point where I stopped playing it.

Mr_Qoo

Maybe you should have some doubt more often. =) I don't think you're the only one on such a "niche" site that knows about games like Tomato Adventure, or something similar to Rakugaki Showtime. There are plenty of people on here who pay attention to everthing.

On the main matter at hand, I still stick to one of my stronger beliefs that several of these games sell to a certain audience and no matter how pop-culture RPG's get, the mainstream will not get into them. It's not the same culture in a lot of places as it is in Japan.

I enjoy my DS and PSP RPGs and will continue to support them as they come out. It's still a shame we miss out on the localization of several great games. Is it also because some companies are hard to work with; especially for localizing their product?

Chris Taran

An RPG not on a home console is no RPG to me!

/me continues his hate for portable gaming

matty

Hasn't it been said that DS games (maybe PSP ones, too) have a bit of erratic sale patterns? As in, it won't have a gangbuster opening week/month, but sales would "stretch" out longer than the home console games? That makes sense as overlapping is a common thing among gamers, but publishers and developers would probably want a more solid response. They can't afford to sit on their hands, not in these financially cautious times.
I know I'm buying games from 4+ months ago, but I do try to keep up with current titles. It really is difficult sometimes, especially on the those long dungeon crawlers. Matter of fact, and funny that it has been mentioned earlier, I'm just now getting into Class of Heroes.

Looking into Atlus USA's case, it's pretty interesting how they're handling (or been handling) their games. Years back, it really was word of mouth that pushed their games. Now, they're on top of each title, giving each one a time in the spotlight, then boom, on to the next one. I think that's good, especially to avoid clusters like what happened earlier this year. Solid work, but it seems that can only go so far. When localizing a game it seems like they have to do a double-hitter; great game, great localization. Even then, there are no guarantees.

Obviously, even as a fan of this niche, my vision is narrow. If I didn't see the numbers or read about "project triangles" I would have said RPGs on portable systems are having the time of their lives.

Ishaan

The problem is that, even if a game does "OK," a cut of the profits still go to the platform holder and to retail. You also need to factor in that a game that doesn't sell a whole lot of units upfront is likely to receive a price cut, which further hurts the publisher.

You know, I'd actually love to talk to Atlus sometime and figure out how they manage to set their sales expectations so low, if they're willing to discuss it. Part of it is probably that they have excellent producers that are masters in the art of recycling assets in a way that doesn't turn off the consumer, but I'm sure there's more to it.

Mazen

Ishaan Where did you hear that Publishers say its hard to make money in the portable RPG market? any links?

Ereek

NickyD, who posted right above you, mentioned it before. He works for NISA and has mentioned it a few times before.

Ishaan

It's not just NISA either. Think about other publishers that haven't brought over games they know their fans want.

Mazen

publisher mentioned this it seems, even the NIS guy above was kinda surprised some RPGs may have other reasons from not coming here like DS Tales Namco maybe thought they want to introduce the highest budget ones to the west to grow the brand faster not that it will not sell,
I think you are hurting and giving JRPGs a bad name by such topics like interest in JRPGs is declining while companies are happy translating them and all of them are profitable companies

and I think on the DS we are getting more RPGs in english more than all of the other systems before.

Ishaan

Obviously I'm not going to force you to see things our way. However, I will say that the one thing we try to do on this site is expose our readers to things on the development / publishing side that they may not necessarily be aware of, and to promote discussion and awareness of the niche games industry in general so that the kind of games we like can prosper.

Sometimes, the truth hurts, yes, but that doesn't mean we're going to ignore it.

Mazen

You said "we’ve also been hearing from publishers that it’s hard to make money in the portable RPG market in the West,"
Where did you hear that thats the opposite of truth thats lie!
When somone make an article like that they should provide quotes from the publishers but I see that Ishaan is the only one saying western Jrpg market decline,
well next time I hope you provide quotes and evidence for your claims.

Ishaan

OK, I'm going to try and explain this because I really, really want people to understand. Let's just try to keep this discussion civilized, all right?

1. If publishers were making the big bucks on niche games, you wouldn't see a lot of games get passed over even though there is a very vocal fanbase asking for them.

2. A market where, by and large, only the big name games do well is not a healthy market. The DS is still receiving RPGs because it has already cemented itself as THE system for those experiences. This doesn't equate to an ideal situation. Also, as Spencer said, it is relatively cheaper and easier to localize DS games than console games.

3. Providing quotes: You need to understand that sometimes publishers will say things -- sometimes in passing, other times because they trust us -- that we aren't supposed to repeat to the public. Sometimes, they even make these statements in interviews, although in a roundabout way that requires you to read between the lines.

I don't understand why you think I would want to give portable RPGs a bad name, considering that we're a website that covers portable games in great depth. I ask that you keep this in mind before making more claims like the ones above.

wildarms

piracy also have some fault on this...

nyoron

Even though I love JRPGs I rarely buy them for PSP, and almost never for DS. The genre lends itself to long gaming sessions, and I just have a hard time staring at those small screens for extended periods of time. But I can play a game on my TV all day. I recently got a PSP 3000 with a TV-out so that's helped a bit, but there's no equivalent solution (for me) for the DS.

The Japanese market is really PSP/DS centric these days so I've tried to adjust, but the majority of portable JRPGs aren't even on my radar.

Pesmerga00

This is exactly how I feel. When I play games (rpg's) I want to relax and become immersed in the story/world. Portables generally fall short in this aspect, at least for me.

denpanosekai

Yeah cause for me it's the TOTAL OPPOSITE. I can now play my RPGs in the bus, metro, on a plane, on a lunch break, in bed (especially before sleeping), etc.

What has changed in me, and this is potentially related to this newfound portable bliss, is how much I have lost interest in a game's storyline. It could be that many recent RPGs are just recycling clichés like they're going out of fashion. But I am getting this OK NOW LET ME FIGHT attitude whenever I pop in a new game nowadays. I'm trying to draw a parallel with fast food here. The game's in your hands, you're on the go, you want to PLAY not READ. I think developers have noticed this shift and are lazily exploiting it through dumbed down storytelling.

Another thing that bugs me is that while the DS is supposed to be like a portable SNES, the overall quality just hasn't made the jump. I mean, SOUL BLAZER. Was that a FANTASTIC title or what? WHY ARE WE NOT GETTING GAMES LIKE SOUL BLAZER ANYMORE? Or Brain Lord? A proper Breath of Fire 2D sequel? Illusion of Gaia, TERRANIGMA anyone? I think the Lufia 2 remake is a good idea, but I'm withholding judgment until the first trailer.

Finally the ugly 3D DS graphics have got to go. Completely. Bring on 7th Dragon!

Pesmerga00

I don't live in a city, so travel to most places involves me driving. When I do have places to wait (doctor, vacation, passenger) they are few and far between. Getting into an RPG that I may play once every two weeks for 20 minutes is pretty daunting.

I can see where your coming from though. I suppose that's why the DS and PSP caught on so well in Japan. The city atmosphere. With local multi-play, and plenty of public transportation where you need to kill time.

I would love a new "good" Breath of Fire game. BOF5 has a pretty loyal cult following, but I couldn't get into it. Limited saves? Start over? I guess I just couldn't get past what to me were very WTF aspects. BOF4 is a very nice looking 2D/3D game. While I enjoyed it quite a bit, one thing about that game really bugged me. Mini-Games. "Ugh" Lots of them. And guess what? Your dragon powers depended on "game points" that were earned from Mini-Games. "Sigh"

Pichi

I'm mixed about that. Depends on the game really. I wouldn't mind reading instead of playing when I'm digging the storyline and such. No different if I were to bring a manga or book to me somewhere. If I'm like in a New Game+, time for the skip button, lol! Reading is good for me if I'm in a moving position and the likes.

Pichi

Also on the opposite train. Love playing when I want and not having to hog TV time from someone else. Multi-tasking as well, since I can play during boring segments and commercials. Waiting for the doctor's and other appointments are a breeze.

With there is so many JRPGs and other genres I like, I can't keep up and play alot, so I have to really think on which to get nowadays.

Ereek

I couldn't disagree more. The PSP and DS have the best RPGs this gen and I wouldn't give that up. Not to mention I find that it is possible to relax even more when you're simply holding the handheld in your hand and can be resting in your bed, in a chair, or on the couch. Certain games are harder to watch for long periods of time on handhelds, I agree, but if you're playing on some TVs it can be bad too.

moriken

I have a hard time not getting cramps in my fingers from the DS instead when playing for more than an hour >.<

JeremyR

I think it's mostly the larger companies saying this (Namco, Capcom, Konami, Sega, etc), and they just have unrealistic expectations. A lot of times, if a project doesn't make them a ton of money, they won't bother. So even a little profit isn't enough.

Still, I think price plays a big issue. DS RPGs are often $35 ($40 if from Squenix), whereas PS2 RPGs were typically $40 (at least in the last few years). It's a little hard to pay PS2 prices for SNES style graphics/production values (if you are lucky, many look more like GBA games). (Never mind that SNES RPGs were actually $80-100 in the day, gamers have been spoiled by PS1's lower game prices)

And another NISA employee (at least I think it, don't know his real name so could be this guy, though probably not), who used to post on their official boards, did mention that the reason they mostly did PSP games was it was simply more profitable for them, per copy (manufacturing/licensing fees, I guess).

NickyD

I think the active NISA member on the old forums was the old editor, Phoenix. But I could be wrong; a bunch of us at the very least look around on it to see what's going on.

vrakanox

I love playing RPGs on the PSP and I buy just about everyone that comes out. Not so much on the DS. For some reason I feel that the PSP gets the more quality RPGs.

Byron Brauner

"Heck, digitally purchasing Class of Heroes, for instance, is about the only way to get it. Atlus apparently couldn’t get GameStop to carry it, so few copies were sold or produced."

Funny I purchased my copy at a Gamestop (release day)...and it's still listed on their site (and multiple stores near me listing it new in stock).

NickyD

That is funny. All the ones I visited said it wasn't even in their system, nor was it eligible for pre-order. Either way, we both got it somehow, so hooray!

kupomogli

I think overall I have more RPGs on the PSP because there are more that I'm interested in.

One reason is that on the DS, most of the RPGs on the system feel too much of the same thing you've played previously. Why is it that nearly every 3d game released for the system has to carry that N64 type 3d look? Why can't the games atleast vary in how they look if they're 3d. Take FF3, FF4, Nostalgia, Suikoden, etc. They all look the same graphically as do others which just annoys me to the point that I've end up completely skipping a few. Why not make the camera further back and putting more of a detailed look in the games such as games like Arc the Lad 3 or Wild ARMs 2. Maybe use prerendered graphics such as Star Ocean 2 or Final Fantasy 7?

That leads to another point. I'm not really big on graphics, so doesn't matter what I play, but isn't the DS supposed to be more powerful than the PSX? Why do almost all the games look graphically inferior to the games all those in the middle of the PSX era. A PSX game disc is larger than a DS cartridge, but there's a solution(don't fill the game up with mass FMV.) A sort of late in the PSX life example would be FF9. The 3d graphics, everything on the world map, in battle, and the characters themselves run circles around the DS 3d capabilities(basically everything but the 2d and the 3d prerenders.) Why does everything on the DS look so pathetic in comparison?

Now there are some 3d RPG titles for the DS that do differ in graphics. Dragon Quest is actually looks nice and thankfully doesn't feel like I'm, once again, playing the same game again and again, unless it feels like I'm playing Dragon Quest(but Dragon Quest owns so hey.)

2d RPGs though? That's honestly what the DS is all about. You can't go wrong with 2d. The games don't give off the same feel and it's really like you're playing a different game. Details in characters, towns, world maps, etc, etc, etc. All noticeable differences from literally any 2d game you may have played on the system. There aren't too many RPGs that are 2d on the system though.

But yeah. Don't get me wrong. I love the DS. The DS and PSP are my two favorite systems of this generation. It's just I feel like the developers are becoming too lazy and using the tried and true method, a reason I like my PSP more. The games feel like there is much more effort put into creating them, that's probably because the developers think the games won't sell as well without the effort put in since it's not as liked as much as the DS, but shouldn't developers put all their effort in every game(well, no, but it would be nice wouldn't it?)

However. I know for sure a majority of the DS RPG titles have much more sales than a majority of PSP titles altogether, so I don't really get the idea of this discussion other than my opinion on the matter.

Pesmerga00

My biggest gripe with the DS's 3D graphics is that they're almost always super deformed. I hate SD characters. I understand that there is a limit to what you can do with the hardware. But developers could at least aim for human-like proportions.

Ereek

Did you play Wizard of Oz? It's not the best game, but the 3D is beautiful and not super-deformed. Movies don't do it justice.

matty

Have you played Flower, Sun and Rain on the DS?
I love the game, but even a character in the game commented on how they looked different to their 2D portraits.

Ishaan

Have you seen Phantasy Star Zero?

Shane Fitzpatrick

you answered your own question.........DS

Phil

Because the market's flooded, I figure. There's so many RPGs, some good, some shlock, that it's hard for the average gamer to even figure out what to play. Even I don't have the kind of time for JRPGs that I used to (though I still try). ;)

SeventhEvening

I only get a chance to play portable games a couple minutes at a time, so I have a hard time justifying a thirty or forty dollar price tag on a game that will take a year or so of playing in bursts for be to feel I got my money's worth. I bought Devil Survivor, but I've not made a lot of progress in it because it requires more dedication then I'm able to give it.

That game would be great on a console where I could sit down and give it my all, but on the DS or PSP I prefer things like Monster Hunter or Pokemon or Atelier Anne. Monster Hunter and Pokemon have a great community with them, so I'm more likely to pull out my system for a more extended play if my friends are joining me for a monster hunt. And Annie doesn't require a lot of effort and it's story isn't complicated, so you don't feel lost if you don't get a chance to touch it in a week.

Sayoko

I find DS gaming for long periods to be so tiring and it's even worse when some force you to use the stylus. I don't find the DS to be particularly comfortable for long gaming sessions (= RPGs).

jj984jj

Nintendo doesn't help the situation by passing on their own RPGs like Soma Bringer and Card Hero. Hopefully their DQIX push will help the market...