New Super Smash Bros. Makes Changes To Hanging Off Edges

By Ishaan . January 22, 2014 . 12:26am

Competitive Super Smash Bros. players are known to employ a tactic known as “edge camping”. Edge camping can refer to a variety of strategies that involve using the edge of a stage to one’s advantage, but one of these tactics involves intentionally grabbing onto a ledge to prevent your opponent from doing the same.

In the new Super Smash Bros. for Wii U and Nintendo 3DS, adjustments are being taken to how players can use edges. Alongside the screenshot above, director Masahiro Sakurai stated on Miiverse: “There are many changes being made to attack and defense options for grabbing edges. In this picture, Link is actually trumping Mario’s grab.”

 

Sakurai added that other changes being made in the new games include:

  • Air time and accumulated damage will determine your period of invincibility while hanging on an edge.
  • Grab controls will no longer be affected by whether you have above or below 100% damage.

 

The new Super Smash Bros. will be released sometime in 2014.


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  • OtoriGolden

    I didn’t even know about the 100% thing until I watched competitive Melee. Maybe because it was more likely to get blasted by a smash attack than die by a missed recovery at that percentage in casual play.

    • http://www.siliconera.com/ Ishaan

      I watched people play competitive Melee for the first time at EVO last year, and it was the most boring thing ever. You’d see people employing the same tactics repeatedly. It wasn’t anywhere near the kind of finesse you see Street Fighter IV players displaying.

      Smash in general looks so unbalanced and chaotic, I don’t know why people nitpick between Melee and Brawl. They’re both super unbalanced and crazy and not meant to be treated as fighting games. And yet, year after year, people pretend that Melee is this super-refined fighter.

      They’re just fun games. And this is coming from someone that abhors Mario Kart for being as horribly balanced and random as it is, in contrast to other racing games.

      • Atmey

        Well, there is nothing wrong trying to make Smash closer to a balanced game.

      • KyoyaHibari

        I’m sorry, but Street Fighter and finesse? lol. I agree with Atmey, the series could use some refining I think, but it might have the potential to be something a little more hardcore despite how wacky and unconventional it is.

      • http://wiredjungle.wordpress.com/ DrakosAmatras

        [Semantic arguments about the definition of "fun" incoming in 3, 2, 1…]

        • Herok♞

          *insert semantic argument here*

          • BlueTree

            No need to insert any pedantry though!

          • Fitzkrieg

            *insert equally semantic rebuttal here*

        • Göran Isacson

          Already begun, this Fun War has.

      • Nanashrew

        That’s why this change is good. It will encourage risk and reward scenarios because you can’t sit idly by at the edge. You’ll have to leap over hope to knock them out and hope to make it back to safety. People will have to learn new strategies.

        Unlike before there were no factors to take in. You could hog the edges all you like and from the sounds of it Sakurai is actually fixing this in a good way. Smashboards seem to really like it.

        • Sakurazaki

          Yeah, I heard Smashboards liking it, and from what I read, it seems really nice. Hopefully the concept is polished nicely.

          I’m interested on how this will change the metagame since edge-hogging/guarding was an important element in competitive play (or friendly douchey play, lol)

          • Nanashrew

            Yeah, and that to me is the bigger thing. The competitive scene approves of these changes.

          • Asura

            The edge game in Brawl was RIDICULOUS (as in, the sweetspot was huge and getting back on the ledge was waaaaaay too easy). I’m sure people who plan to continue on into the next installments would be happy with any change that minimizes those ridiculous edge mechanics from Brawl.
            This new “trumping” thing seems like it would be super cool and contribute more to the edge game if programmed well.

      • BlueTree

        Eh, I’m a non-Smash player and I find competitive Melee pretty interesting after at least having sampled the game. A great deal of Smash’s execution comes from movement, execution that I’d say rivals Street Fighter but manifests different. It’s a different type of competitive fighting game compared to Street Fighter, and it offers quite a bit more for the user by comparison in that many different styles are welcome.

        The fact a game exists that can cater to those who want to play the game with a heavy investment on progression of skill and tactics along with those who just want to press buttons is something that other fighting games have only dabbled in but never fully realized. Case in point, Street Fighter Zero 3 and the ISMs it offers. X-ISM allowed players more familiar with Super Street Fighter 2 X to play a more traditional style game, with no air blocking, though it still had guard bar. Z-ISM allowed those who played the other iterations of Street Fighter Zero to play with supers/air blocking. V-ISM allowed the use of Original Combos and gave access to technical features such as pressing back + normal to get a close attack from any distance.

        Despite these features to customize how you want to play, you still had to have an agreement with who you were playing against with how you wanted the game to be, and this culmination of Street Fighter games with a mix of systems appealed to a lot of players but not necessarily because it was a clean fusion on ideas. I think Smash takes this type of idea and further expands on the idea, with even more options available to how players want to experience the game.

        It’s not ‘just a game for fun’, it’s a game for EVERY style of player. That also includes people who want to, yes, play with the seriousness of tournament level play and nuance.

        That said, I can’t fucking stand playing Smash, it hurts my thumb. It requires quite a bit of finesse, but you’d never know without trying to emulate that style of play, and simply observing doesn’t pay players who make a competitive investment the (begrudging) respect they deserve. You know, for a video game and all.

        I’m not gonna cushion how this sounds at all: The words of a spectator have little bearing on the experience of participation. I’d be very careful about saying “I saw this and felt this” and I’d propose perhaps giving consideration to the notion that perhaps it’s just not a game for everyone. Though it certainly tries to be, there will always be dominant, homogenizing play styles. Fighting against this homogenization is also what makes competitive play, sometimes, exciting.

        • KnifeAndFork

          I like Tatsunoko vs Capcom, Virtua Fighter 5 FS, Gundam Extreme VS, Tekken 3, Tobal 2 King of Fighters 2002UM, Jump! Ultimate Stars and Capcom vs SNK

          And Garouden Breakblow

          • BlueTree

            I scanned for Art of Fighting 3 and I’m left disappointed!

        • Nanashrew

          Best way to sum this up is that Smash Bros. is a sandbox fighter that allows you to play any way you want, and the skill ceiling is as high as your fingers will allow despite how basic the game is. You can deliver combos in any pattern you can think of so being creative is essential.

          There’s also a good documentary on Smash Bros. on YouTube. The video also shows the deep complexity of the game many aren’t aware of like wave dashing, and how each player has their own unique style and ways they are forced to adapt when clashing styles.

          • BlueTree

            Data summation is useful after the fact, but people think based on association. Look up George Lakeoff and “metaphors we live by.” Conceptual Metaphor is why I used the example I did, because it makes things click and if it doesn’t, then I’d just as soon still reach for another metaphor before summarizing AFTER. Just some background behind my reasoning!

            I saw said documentary but sort of rolled my eyes, if the it’s the same one you’ve merely alluded to, that it “overcame never being intended for competitive play.”

            There was always going to be a winner and a loser in Smash. To say it isn’t competitive is pretty daft! From one side I get “It’s not a fighting game”, which begs a sillier response when there are those who want to sell the game and it somehow… overcoming itself? It’s a good game/series, just not my kind of game. I’m glad to see their numbers for participants are in the hundreds at tournaments and that it’s a game lots of people recognize. They don’t need to sell it any further to me, it speaks for itself.

          • http://www.thejaystack.com/ Jon Stachewicz

            “You can have Smash Bros any way you want, so long as you want it with no items on one of like 3 stages” – Henry Ford

        • http://www.siliconera.com/ Ishaan

          It’s not ‘just a game for fun’, it’s a game for EVERY style of player. That also includes people who want to, yes, play with the seriousness of tournament level play and nuance.

          And that, in my opinion, is the problem. The roster of characters is so varied that it does accommodate a large variety of players. That’s great. The problem begins when people start to impose rules and restrictions during tournaments, such as banning Metaknight.

          Now, I’m no competitive Smash player, but I love Metaknight, and I thought it was kind of absurd that he was being banned from tournaments. I mean, there’s probably a good reason, but if you have to start banning characters outright, you know the game wasn’t designed to be played a certain way.

          Take Street Fighter, for example. Ryu is, in my book, an extremely unfair character. He isn’t the best in the game, but he’s by far the easiest to execute combos with, which gives experienced Ryu players a huge, huge advantage over everyone else. And yet, you don’t see Ryu being banned from tournaments.

          • Nanashrew

            Melee and Brawl also couldn’t be patched. Meta Knight was very broken and it made him overpowered. Normally when a character is found to be overpowered and/or broken they get patched and rebalanced. Those imposed rules were to help keep it fair.

            Meta Knight’s main problem is that he has no weakness. He was essentially god tier and nothing could be done. No bad match ups and he started to get overused by a lot of players who knew about this.

          • BlueTree

            Eh, it’s not a problem for the community that forms a consensus, which is in essence a compromise. Something is always gained lost, and I think in the case of Brawl you’re seeing that a game isn’t just about being competitive, I could name a ton of games I think are shit (like SF4) that are extremely competitive. People also want a game to be interesting, even in spite of itself, so it doesn’t really concern me that MetaKnight was proposed to be banned.

            If you, as an outsider or limited participant, want to get concerned with the fixations that people have on tournament/competitive play, I’m going to say that there are 2 points that should matter to you as a participant of fighting games, competitive games.

            1. The best game is the one you have someone to play against.

            2. Competitive play itself is a set of imposed rules and restrictions.

            In an arcade match, you have ONE game to show that you are better than the person you are facing. That was Street Fighter. Some players found this to be unfair, so the idea of a 2 out of 3 SET was IMPOSED in the heyday of Street Fighter. Smash is not some bizarro outlier to this notion of “imposing rules.” That’s what competitive play is, ultimately. Despite this notion of “There are no rules”… there are plenty of rules, that’s why it’s a game.

            People want the game to be interesting, and that can be difficult when the essence of competition is “taking on all comers” but also trying to reconcile enjoyment and player perceptions. You make due with what you have.

            All that stuff about Ryu… I have won tournaments for Street Fighter, I’m pretty competitive in Alpha 2, Super Turbo… none of that in itself matters, I just want to say… people, at the end of the day, will like and dislike characters simply by their nature. The topic of when to ban is something that should be left to the participants of competition. If you keep a character in and your game lives or dies by it, then that will speak for itself. People are still playing Brawl, bless their little hearts, I guess.

            I imagine the same feeling must be true of people who still play 3rd Strike against Chun Li. “Competitive level play” is only one aspect of fighting games, I’d argue.

          • http://wiredjungle.wordpress.com/ DrakosAmatras

            To be fair, I’m not against people setting up their own “home rules”, like the Smash tournament rules or a no-anywhere-save run of Shin Megami Tensei IV. Just that, if they do that, they’re not in a position to complain when the developers’ aims differ from theirs and won’t be catering to their needs. I just think they should know their position, really.

            I ran into more or less the same scenario with the multiplayer aspects in Demon’s Souls and Dark Souls. What I understand is that summoning Blue Phantoms is, as far as From Software’s intentions are concerned (since they’re the ones with the creative rights), supposed to be a co-op experience with strangers. That didn’t stop me and my friend from playing it like a LAN party game, retrying to connect with each other until we’re good to go. Sure, it was a hassle, but it was a hassle that I myself invited, so I didn’t complain. When Dark Souls came around, the EU version was much harder for us to connect in the same way; I was a bit bummed, but again, I didn’t complain.

          • Asura

            “Now, I’m no competitive Smash player”

            Aaaaaaand perhaps that’s where you should stop typing and making lame comparisons that don’t make sense HAD you been at least mildly informed about competitive Smash play.

            This is just opinion from ignorance flaunted as opinion based on knowledge.

            However, the vast majority of Melee players would agree with you that Brawl makes for a horrible competitive game.

          • Hound

            In my youth I was a competitive TCG & Fighting game player, and I can say that it isn’t unusual for tournaments to outright ban certain aspects of the game or limit player options a bit to ensure that competition is varied.

            Magic the Gathering (for example) had a number of banned cards or cards that had been limited or whose wording had to be changed for future releases, and it is certainly a game that is intended for competitive play.

            The same occurs with Capcom’s fighter Jojo’s Bizarre Adventure: Heritage to the Future. At a time, tournaments would absolutely ban the character Petshop. But, as time went by, it was realized that this was unnecessary, and only a couple of exploitive actions were deemed “barred.”

            My brother is a competitive grappler that attends martial arts tournaments. During the tournaments he attends, you’re barred from some holds, cannot perform small joint manipulation, etc. Is grappling (or even wrestling) a sport intended for tournament-level competition? Absolutely. And it’s those minor restrictions that improve the tournaments overall.

          • https://twitter.com/Ni_Go_Zero_Ichi Project 2501

            Hey I remember Arcbound Ravager

            Didn’t they ban the entire Artifact Land card-type at one point?

          • http://nisekami.deviantart.com/ NiseKami

            That’s a bad example. A competitive player spends time to play with his/her character and thus will have the same amount of knowledge as someone who has the experienced knowledge of playing Ryu. A character is banned by his/her capabilities; if he is capable of doing absurd things that completely breaks the game… then it is logical s/he should be banned. And by your banning logic, many games should not be played competitively/that certain way.

          • KoRLumen

            To be fair, Meta Knight has been unbanned, at least, in my knowledge. If you look at the matchups, the advantage MK has over other characters is, in most cases, marginal. Once you learn the matchup with your character of choice, the real battle is in outsmarting and outplaying the opponent MK, and not getting outsmarted or outplayed yourself.

            Though in most Brawl tourneys, MK mains do end up getting the top 8, anyway. And that’s namely a balancing problem, like you said. So the fact that Nintendo brought in Namco Bandai this time around means that they acknowledged they have a balancing problem.

            As for other rules and restrictions, most of them are pretty fair. So… Yeah.

      • Daniel Jeanbaptiste

        Agreed! Melee worshippers are just insane.

        • Sakurazaki

          Is that good or bad? lol

      • KnifeAndFork

        Agreed but it was a unique venture into fighting games…

      • mikanko

        I don’t play these games, but have watched a bit off twitch generally speaking over the last 2-3 years. I think the main reason Brawl takes criticism other than random tripping is the game just generally rewards more defensive and slower play, while melee rewards a more frenetic pace and good offense.

        While Peach or Jiggly can play really amazing defensive games at times, they’re more an exception than the standard (Apex this last weekend’s was primarily fox/falco at the end, and was pretty much constant dashing and lasers and more dashing and lasers.) There is a pretty high requirement of skill to get down the movement options and cancels as well.

        Brawl was meta knight as 7 of the final top 8 characters used, and while I didn’t find falco vs. fox super interesting, Brawl was watching paint dry by comparison.

        But hey, to each their own.

        • http://www.siliconera.com/ Ishaan

          It’s funny you should mention Peach, though, because that one Peach was absolutely destroying people at EVO, and it was because Peach tends to be such a floaty character. No one could ever knock her off the stage because she’d just jump/float right back on. And that totally counts as turtling, imo.

          • Asura

            Recovering back to the stage = turtling? Geezus. Google is right there, one tab over.

            And that Peach was probably Armada, who was destroying characters because he is one of the best players in the world. And Armada does not play a turtling Peach at all.

            And Peach has great recovery due to her ACTUAL float (holding jump), not the fact that she is floaty. Jigglypuff is floaty and will die at 80%, since floatiness and weight are not the same thing.

            Ishaan, please stop making stuff up from your one experience streaming a Melee tourney. It’s just painful to read.

          • mikanko

            Armada has actually stopped competing in Melee, and Evo was his last tournament. I don’t think any other Peach really comes close to his level. He’s from Europe too, which probably gave him a bit of an advantage over people since they don’t get to play against a Peach like his outside of international tournaments.

            My point was still that defensive play is considered an exception and more of an uphill battle in Melee when you’re pitting the best players against each other. Playing a rather passive game with Meta Knight that out prioritizes other characters is closer to the standard for Brawl.

            As far as banning characters go you might be interested to checking out more recent fighting game community articles and podcasts on the subject as Kokonoe is becoming a pretty hot topic for debate. Especially considering Blazblue has always been a bit of black sheep in the American fighting game scene. CP is widely considered the best entry the series has had for sometime, alleviating a lot of what old GG players didn’t like about the series. Then Kokonoe comes and is scaring away potential players for a game that might only really have a limelight till Persona Arena update hits consoles and takes over the token “anime” game at tournaments.

          • KoRLumen

            Wait… Wasn’t Armada at Apex last weekend…? o_o I dunno if he played Melee, though. I think he sent M2K to loser’s though, the guy’s still got it.

          • mikanko

            He was. He didn’t enter Melee singles. Only doubles and Project M

          • KoRLumen

            Okay, thanks. Watched that PM Grandfinals just now. Damn, those two are really something else.

      • Asura

        I am disappointed at how salty, unknowledgeable, and ultimately illegitimate this post is.

      • Haganeren

        Well, of course it’s a refined fighter with lot of depth which can have competitive play.

        The problem I had with Melee is that they are a lot of technique which seem to be from bugs and make the games competitive for only certain character with only the same type of attack and strategy. There is no choice you NEED to take this kind of strategy in order to win. All the depth of “casual Smash” is no more present at this point. It’s a battle of skill at this point, it may be more impressive but it doesn’t interest me much.

        Brawl, for me, may be slower (not that I care) but don’t screw his depth with that… Or at least, those tactics are more “character centered” so you can see more variety. And apart from obvious too good one like Meta Knight or obvious too bad one like Ganondorf it’s not THAT unbalanced either… Just balanced enough for creating a community as you can see.

        • Asura

          Playstyles in Smash are ridiculously varied. The only oftenly used bug (which was found by the developers, and left in the game, though unsuspected to be utilized so widely) is wavedashing, which helps some characters more than others. Yes, it is needed for movement options though. How you weave your movement is entirely up to you though, and players do it differently (in terms of how the approach and their tempo) all the time.

          Back in the day though, when Ken was still winning, he barely wavedashed when people were already well aware of it, and he still managed to be #1.

          And the amount of finesse needed in Melee is immense. It’s a complete and utter lie to say the finesse is lacking compared to other fighters.

          • Haganeren

            Well, I didn’t wanted to use the term “wavedash” for not unlocking the eternal debate about the fact it’s a bug or not but when I said “a lot of technique” they are all derived from the “wavedash” I agreed.

            And I don’t know about Ken because the melee match started to be boring with this technique. Even if you don’t use it, other use it as well so you need to use the same old technique for defend yourself…

            Well, i don’t like it, I prefer the variety of Brawl. (I prefer defensive gameplay in general on fighting game so I may be a weirdo)

          • Asura

            Brawl has far less variety when it comes to movement though, so I have no clue what you mean. I also have zero idea how WDing amounts to “boring” when it opens up MORE movement options, and cuts none down.
            And people who don’t WD at all can still beat people who WD if the skill difference is enough. As I said, one clear example is Ken who was the best player for the first few years after the game’s release, and he did not WD.
            Hell, when somebody first learns to WD they play a whole lot worse, because it takes a lot of practice to integrate it smoothly and not have the thought of “I need to WD” distract you from the rest of the match, and it takes even more practice to use it for mindgame-esque spacing. And even if somebody can WD well, if they are a scrub in other areas of the game, they will still get dominated by somebody who is better – this happens in circles with low overall skill level all the time; the person with the most tech skill is not necessarily the best.

            And I don’t know what you mean by “a lot derived from wavedash”. There is just wavedashing and wavelanding, which are the same thing other than one is done as you leave the ground, the other as you’re about to touch down to it.
            Sure, there’s wavedashing out of shield or wavelanding onto the stage from the ledge – this is all just applications of WD and WL.

            I don’t care what one wants to call WDing. It was found in development and left in. Bottom line is it makes Melee a whole lot more interesting and dynamic.

          • Haganeren

            I don’t understand your opinion. Mastering wavedashing give a huge advantage to the players and that can’t be denied… Even if some can survive without (and not all character can survive versus a wild Falco wavedashing though the stage !)

            This move clearly make a group of “speed” character above the other. Of course, if I play with someone which have no skill beside wavedashing, I will still win. I don’t think it’s even relevant. And yeah, if you have the possibility to make a perfect wavedash with a quick powerful attack. It’s obvious you have less diversity because this attack is the one you will want to make 90% of the time !

            So yeah, maybe when you actually play, you see a lot of variety with the high level of Melee but for spectator like me, it seem to be always the same kind of overpowered move which is used with a combination of high speed movement…. Like I said, it’s not my cup of the, it’s boring in my opinion.

            Brawl, on the other end is more slow and seem to have a lot more option for the each character. (Or else, it’s just that the high competition on Brawl use more varied technique… For whatever raison) For me it’s definitely the best version of Smash in term of variety despite the cursed tripping. I don’t know why so many people want to say that the speeder the fighting game, the better it is. (It’s not like you said that but I have see this so many time…)

            But hey, it’s only my opinion. Maybe it’s because I don’t wavedash myself so I can’t understand, maybe it’s because I like better slow gameplay which make me feel it’s more about strategy than skill, I don’t know.

          • KoRLumen

            Yeah, never really got the whole rap about WDing. I mean, you might as well attack the SHFFL. They’re skills that can only be an advantage if you add it to your repertoire. The whole argument that “having to learn _____ in order to compete with skilled players” is absolutely stupid. It’s like they don’t even acknowledge that these “skilled players” had to invest dozens, hundreds, even thousands of hours in order to compete at the level that they do. If you think for even a second that you’re entitled to compete at the same level as these guys without putting at least the same amount of effort, I’d say you’re a loser.

            And no, not the derogatory insult, “loser.” I mean an _actual_ loser. A quitter.

          • Haganeren

            That’s why I am talking from a spectator point of view you know… Your argument is basically “Yeah, so learn it !” but I am only saying that it limit a lot the different technique employed by the players.

            I could say that I don’t care about what the player on the Melee side of the moon do. After all a game is not made to be viewed from an audience. It’s meant to be played.

            But i’m quite tired to heard here and there that Brawl was “shitty” because it’s slower and don’t have wavedashing. I think it’s something for the better myself that was the point of what I was initially saying and I think it’s more entertaining that way. (I also find that it’s more fun in “my” level but it’s another story.)

          • KoRLumen

            Oh no, don’t get me wrong. I absolutely know what you meant. You just kind of indirectly reminded me of how I have a major contention with people who don’t want to learn the ATs but still want to compete at a high level. Because in all honesty, none of those ATs are remotely hard to master. Its figuring out how to utilize them in battle. Its about the mindgames. I hate it when people look at competitive Smash and write it off for whatever reason.

            And about the spectator thing: it really depends on how much background in Smash you have. If you know a lot about Smash, high level play will always be entertaining. If not, it won’t really be all that cool. Like tennis. These guys are hitting a ball over the net repeatedly. Okay cool. But obviously that’s not at all even close to what’s happening.

            In regards to whether Brawl is better or a shitty game in general, I have to say that I consider each entry in smash neither better or worse than their predecessor. Its why they play all the smash games at tournaments… Or at least most of them. They’re all different games to be enjoyed in different ways, and as long as you can accept that, you’ll have fun with all the entries. This is part of the reason why I hate melee worshippers. Every sequel has to be a melee clone. I mean, what? You wanna play melee, go play melee or project m.

          • Haganeren

            All Smash Game ? Do you mean there is still tournament of Smash Bros 64 ? I need to check that out ! I always love to return to this game from time to time.

          • KoRLumen

            Yeah! Iirc, they did a smash 64 tournament at apex last weekend.

          • Asura

            “But i’m quite tired to heard here and there that Brawl was “shitty” because it’s slower and don’t have wavedashing.”

            Brawl IS shitty because it’s slower and it’s lack of WD though, along with a ton of other factors such as decreased hitstun, infinite use of air dodges, ridiculous ledge mechanics that allow for bogus recoveries. All these factors make it a horrible fighter for competitive play, but if you don’t care for competitive play none of this applies to and you shouldn’t be taking offense.

            You keep saying WD limits moves. This is a flat-out LIE. It can be a lie from ignorance, but it is still a lie.

          • M’iau M’iaut

            Please stop making yourself off to be the knowitall of everything fighter. Folks can have an opinion that isn’t yours pal. The things they have experienced playing the game need not be what you have. Warned.

          • Asura

            I am a know-it-moderately of Smash, particularly Melee. He can have his opinion, and as I said in the post before the one you replied to his preference for which game is better for him is his choice and it doesn’t matter to anyone else.
            However, when you back up an opinion with fact-based information, that information can be correct or incorrect. In this case it is completely incorrect to say that WDing limits the moves that would otherwise be used. That, as I already said, is a factual statement, not one based on opinion. This also wasn’t about personal experience. This was his statements about high-level players and how they fight, not about how he or his friends choose to fight.

            Please read and comprehend what you reply to, pal, because it seems like you didn’t. Discussions are not pure opinion, and fact-based information that is incorrect can and should be called incorrect.

          • Symbol de Au

            No. Factual information can only be correct.

          • Asura

            I edited it to say fact-based.

            As in, whether a game is better at a slower or faster pace is based on opinion.
            But that a slower game tends to be more defense-oriented due to a greater time frame to perform twitch-responses to how the opponent is initiating the attack is in the realm of facts.

            So a person can say something opinion-based and there’s not typically a right or wrong there, but if a person says something fact-based it is either correct or incorrect (ignoring some gray area that does exist here and there, which can often be alleviated by mentioning patterns/statistics rather than making all-or-nothing statements).
            Hopefully that makes it more clear.

            Of course, not every bit of exchange between me and Haganeren was fact-based, but some parts were, such as when it comes to the statement “WDing reduces move diversity”.

            Any other things I should rephrase/more corrections to make?

          • M’iau M’iaut

            If among the folks he played with, those who were good at wavedashing (among his friends) were the most successful players, than that is indeed a reality. What is experienced in a professional Smash Brothers environment is irrelevant. He isn’t playing with your level of player, and from what I can tell of his conversation with the other poster, doesn’t particularly care to. It wasn’t a lie for him.

          • Asura

            That was NOT what I called a lie.
            What I called a lie is his statement that WD reduces the amount of moves in high-level play (this was his justification for high-level Melee being boring to him).
            His comment (I capitalized for emphasis):
            “THAT’S WHY I’M TALKING FROM A SPECTATOR POINT OF VIEW you know… Your
            argument is basically “Yeah, so learn it !” but I am only saying that it
            limit a lot the different technique employed by the players.”

            My response:
            “You keep saying WD limits moves. This is a flat-out LIE. It can be a lie from ignorance, but it is still a lie.”

            This was CLEARLY not about his group of friends he plays with, but about how Melee is played as a whole when WD is integrated (in fact, PARTICULARLY when we are talking about high-level play because that is what is spectated; the pro environment is not irrelevant – it was the context to his claim!).

            I have no problem being warned even if I think it is blatantly unwarranted, but it irks me that you warned me while apparently not even reading what was written…
            I will say it again, pal, please read.

          • Haganeren

            Hum… Yeah… So a combo based game is automatically better than one which aren’t based on that ? I personally find having a decreased hitstun a lot more interesting at high level. It’s not “shitty”, it’s a question of taste at this point.

            The fact we like or not combo based fighting game is a debate which is going though ages in the fighting game community. You can’t just resume it at : “decreased hitstun and infinite use of air doge ? It’s Shit !” like the AVGN. Having a fighting game which is more about anticipation and reaction seem a lot more interesting to me that what you describe me !

            Also, in Melee, it’s harder to come back to the battlefield and in Brawl it’s harder to prevent someone to coming back to the battlefield. The two system have cons and pros. I don’t see any problem here at all !

            I also think i understand why I though Melee have less possibility and is more boring to watch than Brawl. It’s because of the combo aspect ! Of course, there is a lot more “automatism” in Melee that Brawl because of the high speed so when a player successfully land a hit, it often result of a combo which all seem similar to me, the guy which don’t follow. (And to you, you concentrate of how it could have landed the hit so it’s still interesting for you)

            So yeah, you were maybe right about the fact, WaveDashing and L Cancel doesn’t really limit move but I insist of the fact Brawl have a lot more varied match at a result… And in any case, Brawl is not “Shitty” for competitive play by any mean.

          • Asura

            “I don’t understand your opinion. Mastering wavedashing give a huge advantage to the players and that can’t be denied”

            It’s not huge at all. It’s just that the tiniest little advantage means a lot when it comes to play at the highest level.
            And WDing at low skill levels doesn’t achieve much at all, as I already told you. I have been in multiple scrubby groups of friends who played Melee over the past 12 years. The person/people who were able to WD were rarely amongst the best in the scrub-group, because there are countless other factors that play more importance. The advantages of WD only come into play when you’re already good enough for it to matter.

            “and not all character can survive versus a wild Falco wavedashing though the stag”
            What? I don’t even…

            “This move clearly make a group of “speed” character above the other.”
            NO. WDing has nothing to do with faster characters typically dominating the tier list (which is true, faster characters are higher tier). In fact, the faster characters often have worse WDs, because floatiness allows for more smooth wave-dashes. Mewtwo has the second best WD in the game and he is in the bottom tier. In fact, WDing HELPS a lot of low tier characters not be as bad as they would otherwise be. Though yes, some bad characters also have bad WDs, but the net effect of WD towards tiers is even at worst, helping mid and some low-tiers at best.

            “It’s obvious you have less diversity because this attack is the one you will want to make 90% of the time !”

            Total nonsense. WDing does not increase the prominence of one move. In most cases, it INCREASES DIVERSITY. READ: WD allows for a larger amount of moves to be utilized. Even if your statement was somehow true, it applies to every Smash game that one wants to do the moves that are the best. It just so happens that with the movement abilities WD grants you more moves become viable options, not less.

            “Brawl, on the other end is more slow and seem to have a lot more option
            for the each character. (Or else, it’s just that the high competition on
            Brawl use more varied technique… For whatever raison)”
            This is not at all true. And this is coming from somebody who used to attend Brawl tourneys before I stopped playing Brawl.

            “I don’t know why so many people want to say that the speeder the fighting game, the better it is”
            Because you want some form of tempo, and you want flowing action that stays very smooth. You can play Melee at 1/2 or 2/3 speed. It is nowhere near as fun. The other factor has to do with games that rely too much on defense become boring, and the slower the pace tends to be, the more defensive the game tends to get.

            “maybe it’s because I like better slow gameplay which make me feel it’s more about strategy than skill”
            This makes no sense. A faster game does not get less strategic. All that happens is how much time people have to react and how defensive a game can get. To use traditional 2-D fighters, cross-ups and mix-ups loose their potency the slower the pace and the more time the opponent has to react.

            You can have your opinion on preference all you want and nobody should care. The reason I’m replying is because you are trying to justify your preference and your justifications do not make any sense based on the actual game mechanics. So I’m refuting the justifications themselves, but by all means play whatever Smash you want to play.

      • James Enk

        i think there is some an unknown spell cast on SSB because it let’s you play it however you want:)

      • G_heinz

        you clearly have no idea what even goes on in the midst of a high level melee match if you think it’s that shallow. i won’t make the counter-claim that street fighter is shittier in comparison, because i consider sf and melee both to be excellent competitive games, but this is the exact kind of ignorance that runs rampant in some sectors of the fgc and the bottom line is it’s because they don’t even have an inkling of what they’re talking about.

      • KoRLumen

        By the way, a part of the reason why you may have seen the same tactics being employed repeatedly is because of the way the metagame developed. Melee has been out for a verrrrry long time, so some things have just made their way into being a part of the standards of playing a certain character. For example, if you were a Fox who didn’t know how to waveshine… Well, you wouldn’t make a very good Fox, relatively speaking.

        As far as balancing goes, though, I’m afraid I have to agree with you (sorry, Sakurai – I know you put a lot of effort into this, but… Let’s just say it’s a good thing you have Namco Bandai helping out this time around lol). Both games lean far too heavily in the favour of speedy lightweights, leaving characters like Ganondorf and Bowser far behind in the dust.

        Anyway, as someone mentioned before, Smash is very much a sandbox fighting game. The real differences in skill come from something deeper than just surface utilities. Since it was your first time watching high-level Smash, I wouldn’t be surprised if you missed some of the smaller subtleties. Not to… you know, offend or condescend you or anything… Sorry.

      • AndyLC

        That’s how I feel about SFIV compared to SFIII hahah

    • MrSirFeatherFang

      I’m not sure I understand this grab control thing and whether or not you’re at 100% or more? Does this still have to do with hanging on an edge? Or grabbing your opponent?

      • Sakurazaki

        From what I know, when you are hanging on a ledge at over 100%, you will take longer to get up if you pressed the attack or roll buttons.

        The character will sort of look like he/she/it is struggling to get up the ledge in those instances.

        • MrSirFeatherFang

          Didn’t know that, thanks!

  • KnifeAndFork

    They shoulda started development on this game much sooner. They are taking way too long for a fighter and Nintendo is currently paying the price for it…

    • lordroto

      Sakurai was working on Kid Icarus, which was being worked on for some time before that. He stated he didn’t start working on smash till after Kid was released. And way to long? If the new smash comes out any time soon as they “plan” it will be out muuuuuuuuch quicker than Brawl which took years to be finished. It was a massive game, and Sakurai gives a lot of attention to detail. This is the 4th game in the series, and after Brawl you should be happy the development is going as good as it is with Sakurai working with NamcoBandai. Nintendo is paying the price for a lot of things. But games take time, and Nintendo is working on a ton of games.

      • KnifeAndFork

        I liked Kid Icarus but given how popular Smash series is. It should have come first in order of priorities

        • Luigi87

          They did, technically.
          Project Sora, utilizing Sakurai’s Sora LTD., was formed to create Kid Icarus Uprising.

          However they first worked on Brawl. As soon as Brawl development was done they went to work on KIU, afterwards Project Sora was dissolved, and Sora LTD, along with Bandai-Namco, went on to SSB4.

        • lordroto

          you might be the one who needs different priorities. Smash will be smash, it will be sweet when it comes out and likely good. Sakurai bringing back a 25 year old franchise with an excellent game is worth him doing other things with his time. They already run Mario into the ground all the time, do you really want Smash treated with the same rush and carelessness?

      • MrRobbyM

        It should also help that there isn’t a Subspace Emissary equivalent this time. Which, to me, is a good thing. Cutting down development time is just a plus.

      • NimbusStev

        I don’t know about “muuuuch quicker.”

        Melee: 2001
        Brawl: 2008
        New Smash: 2014?

        That’s 7 years from Melee to Brawl, but still a 6 year gap since Brawl.

        ….wow…. Brawl was released 6 years ago…. I suddenly feel very old.

        • lordroto

          But Sakurai made Kid Icarus Uprising between Brawl and the New Smash. :O

    • http://burnpsy.wordpress.com/ burnpsy

      They started the instant the series’ director was done with Kid Icarus: Uprising. How could they have been any faster?

    • Laer_HeiSeiRyuu

      Smash has a two year development cycle

  • http://momentsreprieve.com/index/ Aushria

    So Link trumped Mario’s grab…

    THE ERA OF LEDGE HOGGING IS AT IT’S END.
    MAY ALL THE SMASHERS REJOICE.

    I hate ledge hogging so much, especially in Brawl where it could potentially give I-Frames to the one holding onto the ledge, preventing you from hitting them. Good riddance, I say.

    • Asura

      You are rather premature. We don’t have a lot of detail, to me it looks like ledge hogging is going to be more prominent than in Brawl with this change.

      ESPECIALLY with the I-frame changes.

      EDIT: I misread what you wrote. Ledge hogging is not “holding onto the edge, preventing you from hitting them”. Ledge hogging is when you hog the ledge yourself so the opponent can’t grab it.

      • Symbol de Au

        He meant that you can’t grab the ledge yourself and you can’t knock them off of the ledge because you can’t hit them, which makes it even more annoying.

    • ecoutercavalier

      This won’t eliminate edge-hogging, but I love that Sakurai is acknowledging it as a strategy. It sounds like it will be more difficult to pull it off the way we’re used to. A welcome change.

  • Asura

    Edge camping is not the same as preventing your opponent from grabbing the ledge. Edge/ledge camping is usually what’s done when one grabs the ledge but is afraid to get back on the stage, and typically with the aid of upB (for certain characters) keeps regrabbing the ledge and renewing the I-frames so they won’t be hit. Most common example of this is probably with Shiek.

    • MrSirFeatherFang

      You seem quite knowledgeable about this… could this be? Do you possess the Soul Edge? *__*

  • MrJechgo

    Why not just have multiple characters being able to grab the ledge, to avoid edge camping? The ice climbers could both grab the ledge, so why have multiple characters do so?

    • Asura

      Because as Sakurai is quoted as saying above: “There are many changes being made to attack and defense options for grabbing ledges.”

      Even if Sakurai doesn’t want this Smash to be competitive, he doesn’t want to make it utterly terrible either. This isn’t about letting everybody back on stage, the stage is still a thing you fight to keep control of in a way.

      • Shady Shariest

        You might have derped out a bit at the end there…
        Unless you meant to say the same thing five times :x

        • Asura

          If my pre-edit post is still showing, Siliconera’s comments do not support copy+paste well at all. It makes it seem like it failed so you give up. Then after you click submit everything shoes up at the bottom.

          • Shady Shariest

            Yeah Disqus has been a pain lately… Try posting a picture, that can be fun…

  • chocodino

    hope that takes out that pathetic “technique” of grabbing a ledge

  • SlickRoach

    I always found the competitive fighting game scene funny because of how serious people take “e-sports” but Smash. Bros is just too much. Other than which characters make the roster or not I can’t believe there’s this much to argue about in such a casual game. Next it’ll be debates over the best strategies to beat games like Snake or Minesweeper. What happened to the fun in just playing a game for face value, if that makes sense.

    • Miss_Madness

      It’s funny you say that since you have a pokemon icon. That game is just a competitive.

    • Laer_HeiSeiRyuu

      I think its sort of criminal that people try and limit what Smash can do as being competitive on the scene

      Because honestly, it takes a METRIC TON more skill to play with items on or off.

      Now you can limit which items come to play on the stage and you shouldnt use stages that move like Pokefloats

      Thats the true smash tournament I want to see. Who can survive the chaos of a Sheer Heart Attack?

      • KoRLumen

        Agreed about the items. However, I would also like to point out that the reason why items are banned is the same reason why some stages are banned. The whole point is to have a level playing field. Many stage hazards are seen as little more than interference with the actual battle, and item spawning (apparently) favours the losing party. The whole random nature of certain stages and items compromises the fairness of the match.

        You could absolutely view the ability of a player to adapt to these kinds of game-changers. However, how much of that is actual skill, and how much of it is pure luck? Many kills in Brawl were taken because of a random trip, allowing just big enough of a window for an opponent to land a killing blow. There’s no good way to judge what was a display of skill versus a stroke of bad luck, so in order to best deal with the problem, just make the problem nonexistent. It’s better that the players remain in total control of the momentum, rather than allowing an RNG god to tip the scales at their whims.

        However, that’s not to say that items shouldn’t be considered at all. I full heartedly agree that a tournament with items on should take place (though the few instances where they were allowed proved to be utter disasters, IIRC). Or some kind of balancing thing, like picking a set number of items to start, and the loser of a round gets to counter-pick certain items for the next round, and so on.

        In the end, it’s all about trying to balance an otherwise poorly-balanced game.

  • Ty Austin

    I encourage anybody who thinks Melee is boring, or isn’t a competitive fighting game to watch this documentary:

    http://youtu.be/6tgWH-qXpv8

  • FivePointedTheStar

    I’m sorry, but talking about whether Smash Bros deserves to be a competitive game or not is like talking about why abortion should be legalized or not. Everyone will always use the same arguments that never change and the people who make said arguments make it clear they will never change their position on the subject.

    There is no point in talking about it. It’s hardly conversation worthy when everyone who has participated in either discussion knows what you’re going to say. Or, what you’re not going to say.

    • Haganeren

      Oh ? I think it’s a fun debate though !

      • KoRLumen

        It is, indeed. It’s always interesting to hear the other side and question your own beliefs. And it’s good mental exercise, too.

        That’s assuming the person doing the argument isn’t trolling or something. Then it is certainly a pointless exercise for everyone.

    • Asura

      There are so many things in existence where people like you claim “Nobody ever changes their opinion!”

      You could not be more wrong.

  • http://radiantloki.blogspot.com/ Mark Dinh

    Geez, the comments is technically a Ph.D paper. Smash is just a game meant for fun, I don’t know where all this competitiveness came from. I do agree with Ishaan… Smash is boring to watch competitive.

    • KoRLumen

      Games are meant for fun, in general, so I’m not sure what you’re trying to write off there. Additionally, any game with a clear winner and loser will develop a metagame and will spawn competition, so … there’s your answer as to where the competition came from.

      Finally, the level at which one may enjoy competitive Smash is dependent upon how much experience with Smash you have. If you have little to no knowledge, it’s going to be boring. Just like with tennis – I find it incredibly boring to watch. I see two (or four) people hitting a ball back and forth. But obviously that’s barely scratching the surface. As a budding competitive Smash player, I watch high level play and I see some absolutely amazing things going on. I sit at the edge of my seat. There is so much hype.

      Unless you’re a high level competitor, in which case, I can only shake my head.

      My point is that this is a matter where we have to agree to disagree.

      • http://radiantloki.blogspot.com/ Mark Dinh

        Well, I’m not really trying to write off anything. I never find the Smash series as to be competitive on a “international” level, just more at home with friends. Smash is a really great way just to have at it for kicks and the laughs.

        I’m not THAT into competitiveness with gaming, I just play for fun and the bootleg you can do in Smash. I did watch several matches during EVO for Smash and can see where Ishaan was going with the whole repetitive tactics, but isn’t that in all fighting games anyways? (Taking about Zero user in MvC3 but I digress). I do find some games that were really jaw dropping.

        But as you said, we have to agree to disagree. It’s all opinions. Thanks for the read.

        • KoRLumen

          “Smash is just a game meant for fun…”
          > Implying that competitive play isn’t fun

          But that’s beside the point.

          I agree with you that Smash is extremely fun in the home space. Heck, before I got into competitive Smash, my friends would go to my place every Friday for a few hours of Brawl – this continued on through the beginning of Junior High up until I graduated High School, and we still get together to play (Project M) when we have free time.

          That’s one of the best parts of Smash, and why I love this franchise more than any other competitive game. You can play it as a party game and just go nuts, or you can go at it as a test of your raw skills – and have a blast doing both. I remember my friends and I invented a custom game mode, and it went like this:

          - Stamina VS
          - 3v1
          - The team of 3 chose any character they wanted, but had 10HP only.
          - The remaining guy (The King/Queen, we called them) had 300HP, but had to choose a random character
          - The team gets to pick the stage
          - For every round that the King/Queen won, they had to decrease their HP by 10
          - The team is allowed to turn on at most three items, excluding Smash Balls
          - Whoever gets the kill becomes the next King/Queen

          We had so much damn fun.

          That’s another thing I’d like to see (but most definitely will not happen) in Sm4sh – modding and the ability to submit custom game modes, with Nintendo patching select ones. But that’s a topic for another day haha.

          Oh and another gamemode we came up with. On Pokemon Stadium 1 or 2, we would turn only Pokeballs on (on High), and we would prohibit ourselves from crossing the midline. The only way we could damage and KO each other was through using Pokemon. Catching the thrown ball and returning it as your own was a viable tactic too. Great fun.

          • http://radiantloki.blogspot.com/ Mark Dinh

            Hahaha, I know what you mean. During my high school days, a bunch of my friends and I would go to a buddy’s house and just play brawl all lunch. We would just mess around with the setting and just have at it.

            That is actually a wicked game type! I think I might try it with my colleagues, hahaha. My Wii is hacked, so I was able to put modded characters and stages for Brawl and OH man, don’t get me started when we played Brawl at school during a 24 hour famine. I had character mods like Cloud replacing Ike with his Omnislash Ver.5 has his brawl. Dark Link with all his moves just going rampaging all over the screen and such. There were SOOO many laughs that people at the event would just sit and watch.

            Competitively, I had this one buddy of mine who is just far too advance with Brawl, it was just sad that I could never win a match against him (which is probably why we don’t play competitively much since we knew the outcome), but regardless we had fun! The Smash series is probably my favourite fighting game for having some bootleg action with people.

          • KoRLumen

            Haha you think so? I knew we’d stumbled on something awesome when we conceived it hehe.

            I had the same mods LOL. The Brawl Modding community certainly made many great things possible – it’s why something like Project M even exists, and it’s quickly shaping up to be as good as a standalone Smash. Best part? It can be patched.

            I know what you mean! I had a friend who is exactly like that. We used to be on the same level but then his skill levels just skyrocketed. I sometimes wonder if he’s just gifted at that or something because we play some SF, UMvC, P4A, and Skullgirls too, and even at the beginning when we’re both starting the games, he’ll still outplay me. However, for me, I use it as a source of motivation to get even better at the game, and it just makes that rare moment when I do outplay him all the sweeter.

        • apfjwlso

          It would seem that ignorance is a great way to form an opinion. With your line of reasoning, all sports are boring, aren’t competitive, and really just something I do at home with friends.

          Until you understand the basics of the strategies used in the competitive level, you could never have a real insight into how competitive the game really is. But of course if you think a game isn’t competitive, then it isn’t. And all the while, the world will make money and generate microcosms of economy off these noncompetitive games.

          • M’iau M’iaut

            And Nintendo will continue to sell to both markets. As has been asked before on these topics — stop the sniping from both sides of the battle.

          • http://radiantloki.blogspot.com/ Mark Dinh

            I’m not into sports any way, but I would never think they are not competitive. I do find some that I just don’t rather feel interest in getting into because I just don’t. I have my share of competitive games, it just Smash isn’t one “I” consider to play against people for a title and something “I” would rather play at home with close buddies. Is that wrong? Game can become competitive “if” you choose to do so. If you want games to be competitive fine by me. That’s what you like and I think that is fantastic. I like certain competitive games as well. Anyway, I’ll stop now since I don’t want to continue this any further and don’t want to bother the moderators.

  • Laer_HeiSeiRyuu

    Wow, so many people who dont understand english on here.

    Link trumping mario’s grab means link has priority to grabbing the ledge over Mario, so mario cant get it if link is there.

    • Nanashrew

      Well to clarify, on the Japanese side Sakurai states Link is stealing the edge. Priority is taken when certain factors are met. Characters do not have trump tiers.
      At least that’s what Streets Ahead said on GAF.

  • Laer_HeiSeiRyuu

    Best smash is still the first one/

  • XaviIniesta

    - “Grab controls will no longer be affected by whether you have above or below 100% damage.”

    What does this mean?

    Also:

    - “Air time and accumulated damage will determine your period of invincibility while hanging on an edge.”

    I assume it gives priority to the character with more airtime/accumulated damage. So that might mean that if a character wants to prevent another character from returning to the stage by grabbing on to the ledge before they do, there’s now a smaller window for it? Or perhaps it’s so small that a character who’s been in the air for a while will always be able to take over the ledge over someone who’s trying to edge guard?

    • Asura

      The ledge attack has differed whether you are over or under 100%. The ledge roll also had more lag to it at over 100%.

      Also, I assume the exact opposite of what you assume. Considering how awful Brawl’s ledge-game was, I think this is Sakurai’s attempt at making some form of decent ledge game exist.

      • XaviIniesta

        Ledge attack as in hitting someone who is hanging on the ledge? How did it differ?

        • Asura

          No, ledge attack as in pressing the A button when hanging on a ledge yourself. There is no specific name for hitting somebody hanging on a ledge, ledge guarding is just the general term for exactly what it sounds like and is ideally done before they even recovered.

          It differed by being a completely different move depending on each character, typically one with slower start-up and end-lag thus making it worse.

  • KoRLumen

    Aaaaand your opinion was just invalidated.

    • M’iau M’iaut

      Naw, one can have all kinds of fun smashing buttons with buddies. If that was of which they spoke.

      • KoRLumen

        I guess, when you put it like that. Still, there’s a certain threshold of skill that you need before you can actually Play the game. I mean basic things like knowing how to use your Up-special as a recovery, the difference between tilts and smashes, stuff like that. At least, that’s what I felt back when I first started playing Smash.

        • M’iau M’iaut

          And very clearly the poster was just being stupid from their next response.

          • KoRLumen

            Sigh… Agreed.

  • KoRLumen

    Annnnnnnd you’re using the same argument that every bad troll uses. Heck, you don’t even give anything to support your statement.

    Seriously, what is up with you guys and using the “truth hurts” thing? Is it some kind of weird fetish, or…?

  • KoRLumen

    Hmmm… Try reading the other comments I’ve made in this topic and I dare you to say accuse me of lacking an argument again. I would copy and paste, but the volume of what I’ve already written would make this page far longer than it needs to be. Please, do indulge yourself.

    Frankly, your “truth” doesn’t hurt, because I KNOW it isn’t the truth. What DOES hurt is the fact your comment even exists, because it is steeped in so much prejudice and ignorance that it’s physically pain-inducing to read.

    So before you go and start calling other people trolls, at least have the decency to have some kind of basis to do it in the first place.

  • M’iau M’iaut

    Enough. Don’t introduce shit into the middle of a discussion that has any business being there or anywhere. Warned.

  • Ferrick

    what truth? there is no truth in any of your posts, just your hollow opinions

  • MrSirFeatherFang

    Ok, see you. Banned

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