TLWiki Blocks Japanese IPs From Site

As the headline indicates, I'm criticizing the block of Japanese I.Ps and the reasoning behind that move, not the supposed C&Ds that were ignored. Like I said, it's very hard to take something said in a 2ch post at face value.

No no, there's no need to apologize. I can totally see why you might feel that way. It was about the I.P. block. :)

See, you have a fantastic argument against patent law, and I agree with you in several respects there. You could argue that modern patent law holds back society and progress. But we aren't talking about a shelter here. You seem to have absolutely no respect for art.

Yes, you can copy books all you want for your personal use, if you had obtained an original, but you cannot distribute that copy. I say if one of those people wants translate one of those games, they can. I have pages of translations from game that I have done for my personal usage, and I could decide to share those translations with others, however, if I'm sharing an entire script to a game that is essentially a novel, the writer has a right to ask me to stop, after all, if someone walked up and handed you a copy of a book, why would you go buy another? Since apparently abstracts have no value in your eyes, and issues of creative rights for artistic works are meaningless, think about the fact that another person distributing this person's work cuts into their possible profit. How much exactly is debatable, but it is still an issue. In this specific case it can also cause issues for the artist by creating copies of his/her work that could be utilized against them by foreign (from their perspective) watchdogs, which could not only damage possible profit, but completely shut them down.

Back to the identity issue, I wouldn't be using your credit card, I'd be destroying your reputation. That isn't really your property is it? That's just an idea. Of course, you could make a claim of libel or slander, but in effect aren't you only protecting your abstract potential to succeed, same as these artists?

But, in this case, they DIDN'T give us anything to enjoy… Rather, they're not letting us. That's called spitting in our faces.

Aside from it being juvenile, it's fairly useless. In this day and age anyone who spend some time on the web knows about proxy servers, and anyone who googles info regarding TLWiki can easily find out infos regarding their IP block policy since it has been mentioned in many news sites and boards (the same goes for the japanese sites who started the ruckus, of course).

Right, I've studied copyright law and media rights for years, so I'm familiar with DJ use of fair use. That is creating derivative works based on copyrighted materials and requires proof that the derivative work is sufficiently different from the original and cannot effect the original's profit in anyway. Many DJs have lost cases where their derivative work wasn't sufficiently unique.

And that has nothing to do with this. This is taking the exact same product and altering the language. Courts look at amount of the original that is used, how essential the part which was used (whether the “heart” of the material was taken), and whether the new work could affect the original. This is the entirety of the original being used, all the essential parts as well, and it could very well affect the original ability to sell (how much so is debatable, but it would definitely have an affect). Contrary to popular belief, there is very little real grey area in the law. That is what makes studying it difficult, you have to understand that “fairness” has nothing to do with it. This isn't in a grey area, it is plainly in the black area. Considerably deep in it.

Now, if TLwiki is mixing two visual novels together to create a fresh new sound, then we can talk about it being safe in fair use.

You're right, they don't owe us anything, and they are free not to translate their work, however if they do not, others will. That is their choice, and it is our choice if we want to purchase their games and translate it into a language that we can enjoy it in.

If you truly think one's enjoyment comes before the creator's right and justifies infringement/stealing of somebody's work, yes, stealing, then good for you. It just seems ludicrous to me people claim the original creator has not rights whatsoever, and I do not understand this logic how it is okay to distribute someone else's hard work w/o their approval.

I guess I can safely say many people (you give me a percentage) did not buy the original Jpn copy? It's like music, people d/ling mp3s or an entire soundtrack w/o paying for the CD or online, yes, that's stealing. It's digital files, it's still stealing, people could put any spin on it.

So they didn't translate Clannad for many reasons, and don't want others to do it either (so tons of people could play the game for free). Tough luck, it was a game made by a Jpn company primarily for the Jpn audience. They didn't have the American audience in mind. Solution, learn Japanese. If you pay $70 and understand the Japanese language and the creator STILL doesn't let you play the game, then that's a different matter, I don't think they are many people like you who paid full price to import something they don't understand.

Or like a manga, say Hunter x Hunter, people read scanlation, don't need to pay a dime. When the Jpn book comes out, I go to Kinokuniya, pay $7 + tax to buy the book, I know I paid my fair share. So for those who have read the entire manga w/o paying a cent, yes, that's stealing, from Shueisha, from Viz, from Togashi.

The chain is too long, that is why you cannot reply. I appreciate your idealistic point of view, but it seems incredibly naive. Perhaps you live in a country that works radically different from the way things work in the United States. I was enjoying the relatively intelligent arguement with you, but that last post makes you sound like a little kid. “Get a new identity”? That works for a highschool student moving to a new town, but it doesn't work in the real world with real businesses. Rebranding happens, but it is incredibly difficult to do. Human themselves casting off their reputation is almost impossible unless they are so incredibly unimportant to their community that no one cares. Go ahead and ask a sex offender how easy it is for him to escape reputation. They are frequently ostracized everywhere they go, few people want to hire them, some housing complexes run them off, etc. Or look at the person who has a terrible reputation of quitting jobs. No one wants to hire that person and if that person “just gets a new identity” then they won't be hired because they appeared out of no where, can't get a background check and have no work history. If you fabricate those you will eventually lose your job due to falsification. Believe it or not, your reputation is considerably important to your tangible things, or at least the acquisition of any further tangible things. I suppose if you've won the lottery or already possessed enough money to live on the rest of your life then you're fine, but then you should at least appreciate that you are an exception to the rule.

If everyone possessed your incredibly physical point of view, there would be no visual novels, no one stealing them, no movies, no television other than the news, no innovation and no art. What is the point in spending millions to produce a movie if you can't make any money off it? You could argue “for arts sake”, but that's totally bullshit. It costs serious money to create movies, tv, visual novels, games, and if you can't even break even, those artists can't eat. Those are massive industries that all function on the selling of stories, ideas and creativity. The fact that you can't see that is mind boggling.

I wonder if anyone at TLWiki is reading this comment thread and laughing their heads off.

Our only problem of course is the fact that with events like this, you can't help but wonder if relations are going backward.

I've been talking with a few translators and they're concerned about the growing hostility that's growing between the various groups. The law (as above) is one thing, but there's been a significant amount of negative publicity around Japanese culture, so perhaps they're just reacting by protecting it from further outside scrutiny?

You can't really criticize what you can't see, and although it just makes our job harder, it'd probably keep the cursory complainants who sort of grab an end and pull from causing the bad publicity.

Doesn't help either that the piracy rate around translation patches is something absurdly high either…

Well, I have read many of Hume's works, although I have not read that particular work. You should be quite well aware that Linux, while an impressive alternative and a flexible OS, does not quite possess anywhere near the level of use as the commercial OSes and is considerably less user friendly. But Linux was only born as an alternative from the already existing operating systems. As much as I hate to admit it (I love linux and have supported it from the beginning) it would likely not exist if not for Windows and Mac OS existing before it. Additionally, few people can actually use it. Unbutu has made great strides, but the system is still too obtuse for the average (or lowest common denominator) user. While I can't entirely back up the claim that no creative works would be created, neither can you disprove it. Even your example of Linux isn't an artistic work, but rather an infrastructure. I feel functional works such as an OS or the design of a new water pump fall into the patent protection category, which i feel your arguement is better suited for.

Your arguement reminds me of some of the ones I've had with people on /., most of which are also computer science and IT guys. I doubt that either one of us will be able to convince the other one. I specialized in communication and media sciences, so I can sympathize with the artists. People who create creative works put their heart and soul into it. While some want it to spread it to anyone in anyway, some of them don't. And I think they have a right to decide where and how their heart and soul is spread. While you may feel these are intangible and meaningless, I'd say a majority of people don't.

I would agree with you if the Demonbane translators weren't, as far as I know, the same TLWiki guys that are enacting the IP block. Things aren't so simple as you put them :P

They have shown that they are absolutely willing to cohoperate with the copyright owners to do official localizations, but at the same time if the news about the ignored C&Ds are to be believed (and they may well be lies, since the only source we have is an anonymous post) they don't seem interested in complying if the japanese companies ask to stop translating without starting a localization of their own.

It is not a particular work of David Hume, its in his whole argument on morality. If you really did read David Hume's work then you would stumble upon it, since you stated you have never even read his argument on the Is-Ought Gap then you really didn't read or had a grasp on his argument. A simple Wikipedia or Google search on David Hume will bring you to his argument on ethics and morality.

Linux was not formed due in part to Mac OS or Windows, it came from Unix. Unix being owned by, at the time Bell Labs, many university were the only one able to use this powerful OS and add to its library during its early stages. Then many computer science enthusiast wanted an OS similar to Unix but without the licensing fees that came with it, which bore out Linux.

The argument that Linux is not user friendly nothing I brought up, but since you insisted. Its thanks in part due to demand for a free OS that can replace Windows or Mac OS is the reason why the GUI(graphical user interface) has now changed to where it is. If there was no demand for such a thing, I would argue most likely that the Linux environment would be the same as Unix, only used by the most tech savvy.

Sure people put in a lot of their time and effort in designing something, writing something, filming something but if they honestly think the things they thought up is actual tangible good thats equal to gold, silver, or any other scarce material is quite foolish. If they really wanted to make money off of it they can do so, but if another sees his work and replicate it by another means, by his own intuition or simply reverse engineering it, this did not invalidate this mans right to still make the product by his own “ideas” and sell it to who ever, in fact since you are the original designer you know the intricate design and would be able to improve it faster than your copy-cat competitor. I would argue this is the reason why you have innovation not due in part of hording an idea until it runs dry by the patent office or whatever service is protecting your Intellectual Property.

Yup, demos sound like the way to go if we want fan-translations to serve the same purpose they were intended for, back when people first started them. It's kind of funny how this industry — games as a whole — is very unique in how bi-polar it can be.

On the one hand, the extremely passionate consumers often choose to wage war and voice their dissatisfaction with the producers. On the other, it's also an industry where close collaborations between the two groups can result in something truly wonderful, which is something not many other industries can do.

With that in mind, there are certainly ways you can help bridge the gap between the two parties and help them come to a mutual understanding. It just takes time and patience. :)

I find it a bit ridiculous for both sides of the fence to be “warring” over this issue. On the one hand, TLWiki's blocking of Japanese IPs doesn't solve the problem at all – it certainly won't change the mindset of the game companies, and it isn't as though these blocks aren't easily circumvented. And on the other side – why BOTHER blocking a translation in the first place? Most of these game companies (Minori, for instance) do not intend to ever localize their works. And no, the piracy argument doesn't work well here. Piracy hurts game companies because it costs them sales – but native english speakers wouldn't even purchase the game in the first place, if they weren't confident that they could play it. Infact, translation projects may actually encourage people to buy the game itself. I won't deny that translation projects will always cause a few people to resort to piracy – but these are individuals who would never have purchased the game anyway. If they could understand Japanese, they would never have needed to wait till translation patches were released before they went hunting for pirated copies. The game companies aren't being denied sales – because these sales wouldn't have happened to begin with.

The admin probably doesn't care since he pirates everything anyway.
So yeah, definitely laughing.